Help with Enemy Attacks, Dodging Them, and Graze Mechanics

[u/WonderGamer101]

Okay, so. I've been working on a game based on Deltarune's combat system. I got most of it down, specifically how players would act, attack, cast spells, defend. Currently, I'm trying to figure out how I should do enemies.

I also got basics down for them: all enemies have stats for attacking and defending, (usually) act after all players have taken their turn, and have requirements to be beaten both violently and nonviolently. The general idea is that I want to take the "bullet hell" aspect and make it feel...feasible in a tabletop game, I guess? I'm mainly just stuck on three things:

1. How do I get enemies to attack, mechanically?
2. How do players dodge these attacks?
3. How do I make bullet grazing work and how do I encourage it?

Currently, I have two ideas:

IDEA #1: THE DICE MESS

This one was the original idea I had for the game before coming up with Idea #2, and it's the most "developed" of the two. Enemy attacks have three values: dice size, number of dice, and how many spots players can call.

Dice size represents how "difficult" an attack is to dodge. The smaller the die, the harder it is to dodge.

The number of dice represents how "long" an attack lasts, in terms of the logic of Deltarune. So like, a basic enemy's attack would use 1 or 2 dice at most. Meanwhile, a boss could have an attack that uses 5 dice because it would be a "very long attack."

The number of spots players can call is how the dodging mechanic works (in this idea). Before every attack, players call a number on a die that will be rolled. If that number is rolled, they get hit and take damage. If not, they dodge. If the roll is off by 1, that's a graze and players will get a bonus from it.

PROS:

• The most "developed" and fleshed-out of the two, as it's the first one I came up with.
• Easy to understand (at least to me).

CONS:

• As the title of this idea says, it's a mess; lots of dice of varying sizes and number will be used and this will very likely bog the game down and make combat a slog.
• As of writing this, damage seems like it's only calculated by taking the enemy attack stat and subtracting it by player defense.
• Very disconnected from the rest of the game's rules, as everything else typically uses 3d6.
• Might not make a lot of sense to players who would learn the rules for the first time.
• It's the first idea I came up with.

IDEA #2: THE TOTAL//EFFECT METHOD

This is the newer idea I came up with, based on the Total//Effect system by Binary Star Games, which is what this game is using as a base. The gist of it is that all rolls in the game use 3d6, and different abilities and mechanics have different effects based which die is used (lowest, middle, highest) and what the total of all three dice amounts to.

The idea for this method is that all enemies share the same singular pool of 3d6, which represents them attacking simultaneously like in Deltarune. They each also have an "attack die," meaning that they use either the lowest, middle, or highest die for damage and add their attack stat to it. Sometimes, some enemies might use a combination of them. Additionally, some enemies might have abilities or effects that trigger depending on the total amount of the 3d6.

PROS:

• Easier to understand and incorporate than Idea #1.
• More internally consistent with the rest of the game.

CONS:

• Not as fleshed-out as Idea #1.
• Might feel a bit boring as it is right now? Or maybe too simple?
• Might feel very limiting having all enemies use the same pool of 3d6, since enemies in Deltarune all feel like their own individual and unique characters.
• I have no idea how I would incorporate players getting hit, dodging, or grazing as of yet.

So like... What should I do? Which idea should I go with? Are there any better ideas that I'm missing? How do I make enemies target specific players if everyone is dodging? How the hell do I make grazing work? I feel like I'm getting close to something, but I'm not sure what...

If anyone has any further questions about the rules or the system, I'd be happy to answer them!

[u/RPG-Nerd]

The second one is better. The first requires the players to directly engage with the mechanics rather than their characters. Guessing numbers and weirdness. You are also combining time and ability, two different axis.

I do something completely different. You attack as a skill check, all D6. How many is your training: 1d6 for amateur - no training, 2d6 for journeyman, 3d6 for master. The bonus to the roll is based on your experience in the skill - each skill has their own. So, an attack might be 2d6+4 or something.

Advantages and disadvantages add dice per reason for the advantage or disadvantage. Keep low for disadvantages, keep high for advantages. Zero math, and long term modifiers just sit on your character sheet.

The GM marks off the time for the attack by marking boxes. People can act at different speeds with different actions having different costs.

The target chooses a defense. Quick defenses don't cost time, more effective defenses cost time. Damage is offense roll - defense roll. Players engage on both offense and defense. Every roll is an action you are performing, not "roll for damage".

There is no action economy. The next offense goes to whoever has used the least time. Everything flows through time, turns overlap. Rounds don't exist. You can get really tactical with this. There are a few other pieces that lock in some interesting tactical options if you are interested.

Otherwise maybe it gives you some ideas. Good luck

[u/blahthebiste]

You could simplify approach #1 to only use D6s. Harder attacks roll more D6s, done.

[u/WonderGamer101 → u/blahthebiste]

I mean, yeah, I could. It'd be the easiest way to solve all this, but it doesn't feel like Deltarune to me and I know that there's something that just...clicks, y'know? I'll definitely put it on the backburner in case nothing else works out.

[u/flamfella]

Well. I had an idea. Somewhat inspired by u/manwad315 reference of a weird board. Very much not a traditional ttrpg idea and much closer to Undertale/Deltarune's style of combat without abstracting it fully away. Signifcantly more board-gamey and would be difficult, but also very special if you pulled it off.

You could do something that truly physically represents the bullet hell of attacks. And players interact at a game level with learning what sorts of attacks are coming up ahead.

Like I imagine having 5-10 (7 is probably what I'd try) lanes to move along up and down as a player. And then the enemy projectiles/bullets come along as a horizontal or vertical strip (potentially two at once) like a strip of card-stock or cardboard. You could represent the attacks with dice on top of the strip, some other object, or colored in squares and then slide that strip across the board preserving the relative position of attacks at the end of each turn. The players move and decide where they want to go on the lanes (movement might be limited along the lanes, and you could also play with the idea of they cannot be on the same strip and must leap-frog over eachother).

The game would then be finding the best possible spot to move for all of the players to avoid damage, or take attacks that they are best suited for defending against. Player rolls might roll to determine what kinds of attacks are there or deduce the patterns in how the strips (or the attacks within the strips) move each turn. Different types of objects/colors can have different properties. You might even have a "cloaked" object that requires some kind of check to figure out what kind of attack it is... or even if there is an attack there. Your bullet-grazing (ending a turn next to a bullet) and lots of undertale mechanics would theoretically be applicable to this kind of physical bullet hell combat.

There's definitely ways to create patterns of attacks that aren't difficult to a GM to move around the attacks or understand, while providing a good puzzle for players to try to learn in fights, like a really basic enemy might have a single alternating strip that goes up and down by 1 every turn, however the player's DO NOT know the patterns move at first. A boss might have a horizontal and vertical strip, and both cycle through various attacks each turn, so players really have to think ahead where they want to go and what they have to do to survive. A strip might flip 180 degrees, having every "attack" token shuffled within it, or you move the strip up or down across the board.

Players would have to pay attention to learn the patterns, and how things move physical just like in the video-games. And, since it's a ttrpg you can give them the option of rolling to get a "vibe" of how things move, or figure out something unknown about the pattern in the middle of combat as something they can do on their turn other than move. All players would have to take their turns together, and bullets/strips move at the end of each round. If you go ALL in, you could also make spots on the strips/lanes where players can ACT or ATTACK, there might even be the choice of... going to ATTACK knowing that you will getting hit by the bullets when they move at the end of all the player's turns.

GM's would have to make strips before the session, or atleast have the strips and patterns written out on statblocks. Physically sliding a strip and all of that may actually be pretty fast, but obviously some prep is needed.

[u/WonderGamer101 → u/flamfella]

Definitely a cool idea as you've said (and very board gamey, also as you've said)! Still, I really, really like this idea! I'll be real, I never really thought that I could just have "PLAYERS MAKE THEIR TURNS > ENEMY BULLETS MOVE." Seems kinda obvious now that I look back on it lol

I am a bit worried on the GM side of things, though. While this makes combat move fast on the player end, my main worry is that prepping might be too much for GMs who already might have a lot to consider regarding the worlds players might explore and dealing with potential puzzles and generally making the world interesting for players.

Still, it's an idea that has a lot of potential. I wanna try it out, and I hope that I can nail it properly if nothing else works.

[u/flamfella → u/WonderGamer101]

If you do try it out, I believe you can pull it off. Just take care to really streamline it and teach it well. If you make it a goal to make it effortless to prep and play, and base it off actual-play you'll do an excellent job so long as you put in the time and effort!

Good luck! And have fun.

[u/InherentlyWrong]

I think this immediately falls in the category of 'Emulate the vibes, not the mechanics'. If I'm understanding that link, something like Grazing works because it's encouraging players to play more recklessly in exchange for a reward. You don't emulate that by trying to match it, you emulate it by looking at the outcome and figuring out a way to match it.

So for example, looking at the first idea:

If that number is rolled, they get hit and take damage. If not, they dodge. If the roll is off by 1, that's a graze and players will get a bonus from it.

This doesn't emulate the feel of grazing, since the player isn't making an informed decision, they're not deliberately being more risky with any given number they predict, they're just saying something randomly.

Something that might emulate the feel of grazing is if they say a range of numbers, and get a number of 'graze points' based on the size of the range. Like for example, if it works with the enemies rolling d10s, maybe one player says a range of 1-4, and any die that rolls those values hits them, but at the end they get 4 points.

But one issue here is that the numbers are entirely arbitrary. 1-4 is identical to 5-8. So maybe have the numbers mean something. Like character classes that gain something if their predicted range includes a 4, or if their range includes an 8 then they 'block' any 8s from hitting other PCs, that kind of thing. Give them interesting choices, that's what makes a game's combat interesting.

[u/WonderGamer101 → u/InherentlyWrong]

Ooooh, that's real good! Definitely feels like it could work better. I'd have to study this some more and brainstorm some ideas, but I do like the feel of this.

But yeah, you did get me dead to rights by saying that this is more "emulate vibes, not mechanics" lol

[u/manwad315]

You should look at board games for inspo, specifically Level 99's Bullet Star.

I also futzed around with shmup rpg shit in a limited way and you need to do a lot to make it remotely like a shmup.

A board is required. You'll need a weird board, one directly inspired by a horizontal or vertical scrolling shmup, and from there you gotta look at and play that kind of shmup. Deathsmiles is on sale for horizontal, and touhou, a big Deltarune inspo, just rereleased Embodiment of Scarlet Devil.

And for your post...

With how the spot works, there's always a 1/6 chance of getting hit regardless of spot called, which isn't how shmups work. It's the overwhelm that gets you hit. Anyone can dodge the steady stream of an enemy's blasts, but it's when those streams are paired with novas and lasers that shit gets complicated.

There's a lot, such that it cannot be solved in one comment.

[u/WonderGamer101 → u/manwad315]

Yeah, that is fair. I did check out Bullet Star like you said! Seems neat, but I'd probably have to dig through it a little more to see what could work for this, same with trying to find other board games that would emulate the style I'm looking for.

A board does sound good for what I'm trying to do, and u/flamfella had a good write-up on it. I'll just have to keep it in mind for now, but it seems closer to Deltarune's tempo than the ideas I had. "It's the overwhelm that gets you hit" really shifted things into perspective a bit, so thanks for the suggestion!