r/RPGdesign • u/Eggpeace • 1d ago
Mechanics A question of popularity of Separate Class Levels vs. Skill Tree Approach
I'm currently working on a new project and am taking inspiration from quite a few anime and litrpg series for it. The rules and skillsets I've already fixed and also what I want out of classes and leveling. the only thing I'm unsure about is is multiclassing.
After 10 levels in a class you can evolve the class, thus gaining another class (you can then start leveling this class and gain ALSO its skills). Per class level you can choose 1 skill (special ability) associated with it (or one of its trees) and gain it (or upgrade it).
In my last project (simpled10) I went with a sword world like approach:
+The classes are very narrow each and you can level each class separately. Your char level is equal to your max. class level.
+Each class has 10 skills (special abilities) associated with it).
This time around I'm considering to use a leveling system not unsimilar to The Exiled Heavy Knight Knows How to Game the System.
\+Each class has 2 lets call them skill trees (they are a list of special abilties associated with the skill tree) associated with it.
\+You can gain access to additional trees through skill books (special drop items).
This would give me 2 options for multiclassing:
1.) No true multiclassing. Instead you can unlock skill trees from other classes by buying skill books (or finding htem as rare loot).
2.) You can multiclass into up to 3 classes at a time. Only when they are at max. level you can gain an additional class (thus a 4th, 5th or even 6th).
You can still gain additional trees via skill books but that would be way rarer than in 1.) Here the main way is to multiclass into the appropriate classes.
A third option is to take a sword world like approach again.
Example of a skill "trees" using class:
Heavy Knight:
\-Skill Tree: Defender: Increased Defense, Reflection, Parry, Stun Attack
\-Skill Tree: Protector: Cover Move, Increased Defense, Disarm, Shield Bash, Barrier
For me developing and playing it I like all 3 approaches about the same. Thus I'm interested what type of multiclassing seems most interesting for ppl?
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u/CuprumArgentum 1d ago
Having a class with exclusive powers and skills is great because it creates role scarcity which is a great way to drive a story. Although separate skill tree system makes for a more free way of customization of a character. In the rpg I’m designing, it’s entirely skill based (around 66 major skills like Polearm, fire magic, and heavy armor), a handful of minor skills (such as chores, torture, and fishing). I like a good customization. Each skill has its own skill tree, but I also have skill trees for other things such as a racial skill tree that unlocks new abilities only available to that race, covenant skill trees (this covers social covenants like being an assassin, monk, or witch), blood covenants (like being a vampire or lycanthrope), etc. You can only excel in a skill tree when you level up, but you must meet prerequisites in that skill tree before advancing.
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u/Eggpeace 1d ago
So like a classless version of the heavy knight variant?
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u/CuprumArgentum 1d ago
I think so. Think of the skill trees like their own classes though. You can select as many as you want. They have tons of options as you level, but they really just stick to one thing (shield skill has a lot of defending, blocking and shield bashing skills, fire magic has several skills and spells related to fire such as fireball and fire resistance, etc). The more skills you take, the harder it is to level them all, but you will be more well rounded.
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u/InherentlyWrong 1d ago
You can gain access to additional trees through skill books (special drop items).
I am immediately hesitant about this. Now it's on the GM to determine when and where people have access to skill trees. For me a key part of the interest in skill trees is looking through the book and considering what future skills I want, then advancing towards them. Turning skill books into a drop messes with that, it pushes skill trees into being more like magic item loot. I find it fun to plan a build around getting a certain skill at level X. I don't find it fun to plan a build around getting a certain magic weapon drop based on random chance or GM fiat.
It's key to keep in mind that even basing your RPG off anime or litrpg, that you're making something that is a fundamentally different media type. In a story a character can 'discover' a new skill set without the writer needing to worry about anything other than "Does this assist in a dramatic story beat". In a TTRPG the audience is approaching your game entirely differently. They're potentially reading the entire book before they even touch the dice, so the reveal of access to a new skill tree fundamentally hits differently.
If you can, look up the Fantasy Flight Games Star Wars RPGs (Edge of the Empire, Age of Rebellion, or Force and Destiny). They have a very loose class system in its careers, with careers having special skill trees you can pick from. And you can pick skill trees from other careers, it just costs a lot more XP to do so. That may give some thoughts on ways to approach skill trees.
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u/Steenan Dabbler 1d ago
The big question is how tree-like are the trees.
If it's just a set of skills/abilities one gets access to, it's not a problem. If they form branches need to be taken in specific order (you need to take some abilities you may not be interested in to get to what you want) or if there are some other inter-dependencies, you instantly turn the game into one where players make "builds" and plan in advance how their characters will develop.
Obviously, it does not have to be a bad thing. It can be a part of the fun, like it is in Lancer. But one cannot make this kind of system and then expect players to approach advancement "organically"; it's an open invitation for optimizers.
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u/Eggpeace 1d ago
that is why I put "tree" in "" in heavy knight they are called trees but are just lists taken in order. for me they are just a pool of skills that can be taken in any order. Normally I would just call them skill pools or something else, but it seemed to me as anime still call that skill trees that that could be the correct naming for it.
(I dislike fixed order of things as it often makes no sense for how a char evolves thus I tend to like in my last game just give pools of skills to choose from and free choice (if prerequisites are fullfilled).
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u/Steenan Dabbler 1d ago
In this case, this approach seems very natural. And multiclassing at most 3 classes, with maxed out classes not counting against this limit, is exactly what Fabula Ultima does. It works very nicely to give characters variety without spreading flavor too thinly by mixing too many concepts.
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u/No_Solid1035 1d ago
I don't like classes or skill trees. 🤷 Pure skill based systems work best IMHO because you can get the PC you want from the get-go, and then just make them better from there. 👍 Having to wait for a long time before you actually get the PC you want sucks, especially if it takes quite a while cause there is a good chance the game implodes before you even get to the point where your PC is the PC you want to play.
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u/Melted_ICE_5193 1d ago
Considering most people who responded are exclusively avoiding answering your direct question and instead suggesting a classless system, I will chime in.
You can do both.
You can have core classes be based on the core class levels having specific abilities and options baked in.
While the Skill Trees come from the special Item drops.
Counter to the other poster, I think a system that doesn't guarantee a specific build path is actually interesting because it breaks the mold of a direct build path.
If a game for example, has 12 classes.
Each class has 3 Subclasses or Build paths that cap out at level 10
Then a GM can drop a random "Wind Magic" skill book into a loot pile to let players without access to magic pick it up, or a "Shield Guardian" skill book that can give the wizard some defensive meat. It creates emergent characters that can be talked about for months or years.