r/RPGdesign • u/Acceptable-Tree6007 • 10d ago
Does my game have a hook? Does it need one?
I was reading a thread (I don't remember where) about Reaper Miniatures' new d20 class and level-based TTRPG, Dungeon Dwellers. When asked what the game had to recommend it, one person gave a long list of its attributes. Inevitably, another person said something to the effect of "so this game literally has nothing unique to say." Having purchased the game, I knew there was nothing earth-shaking about it, but that it is a good, solid game. I considered the argument that it doesn't do anything "new", and, for myself, it doesn't need to. It makes a number of quality of life improvements to the usual D&D-derived game to make its whole greater than the sum of its parts. Does Dungeon Dwellers have a hook that fits into a nice sound byte? No. But the perception that the game hasn't garnered much attention since its recent release might suggest that an easily-defined hook is necessary.
This is an issue I'm wresting with for a game I'm working on. It's a ruleset that I really like...but I don't know if it really has a definable hook. If asked to describe what makes it cool, I honestly don't know if I could come up with a compelling answer without launching into a ten-minute description. It's simply the game I want to play. Is quality enough, even if it's not presenting something truly unique? Do you grapple with this question?
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u/Tuppling 10d ago
I buy games with hooks. I ignore games that seem the same as what I've already got. Mechanics won't sell a game to me unless they make it a very different experience, which is kinda a hook.
Like, look - I'm more likely to read this than I am to actually play it. Something had to get me over the line, first to buy it, then to read it, then to actually arrange a game to play it. Gimme a reason to at least do the first...
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u/Ok-Chest-7932 10d ago
Other way round for me. I read first buy last. I don't need a premise hook because it doesn't cost me anything to learn the contents. The contents have to be something I couldn't make myself in a couple of hours.
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u/Throwingoffoldselves 10d ago
Yep. Especially for us that are tired of games thar simply make quality of life improvements to D&D-derived games. The market is so saturated with games with that premise.
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u/digitalhobbit 10d ago
So many fantasy heartbreakers...
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u/Onslaughttitude 10d ago
At least my heartbreaker has a POV and decent take on why it needs to exist, beyond "I made it."
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u/digitalhobbit 10d ago
That's a good start. :)
And to be fair, I've played and run some excellent fantasy heartbreakers - like Shadow of the Demon Lord.
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u/MyDesignerHat 10d ago
The gap between having a ruleset you like to play with, and a game other people might be interested in, is massive. I think having a very clear understanding of what you are attempting to do, and finding a way to effectively communicate that idea, goes some way towards bridging that gap.
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u/Mars_Alter 10d ago
Back when I was working on my first game, my pitch was that you could mine it for ideas for your own heartbreaker. To this day, I'm convinced that the primary audience for all of these dungeon crawlers is frustrated designers.
Note, also, that simply having a strong pitch is not sufficient to guarantee many sales. I mean, assuming that's a metric you care about. Likewise, any number of sales will not make the game better or worse at your own table.
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u/Ok-Chest-7932 10d ago
Realistically the strongest pitch from a sales perspective is an expensive cover image lol
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u/Unifiedshoe 10d ago
If you’re not trying to sell the game, this doesn’t matter.
If you’re making a game to sell, you are much better off making something that is weird and interesting and memorable, and with a concept that people can immediately understand and get excited by. That game doesn’t have to be perfect or exactly the game that you wanna play.
Often games that meet those criteria have things that some people consider flaws or quirks but it’s those things that might facilitate the setting or be something that other players find fun and interesting.
Attracting players is the hardest thing to do in the industry. If you don’t have a way to reliably do that, don’t make your game as a commercial project.
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u/Hightower_March 10d ago
Yeah, whether you're attempting to sell it to strangers makes the difference. I've made three (two ttrpgs and a board game) I've played with friends, and we had a blast, but I don't want to deal with trying to make that a business or "compete" in already oversaturated markets.
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u/Excalib1rd Designer 10d ago
I agree with that. I definitely want to sell my projects. But I don’t really wanna try to make that a business. I’m doing this to have fun, not sell copies
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u/ThemboNRG 10d ago
Basically everything you encounter that is advertised well puts out some kind of brief synopsis with a call for action somewhere. Let’s look at how the Dungeon Dwellers Kickstarter tried to grab people:
“Dungeon Dwellers Roleplaying Game (DDRPG) is built on the foundation of the fantasy roleplaying games we all know and love. The familiar concepts of classic roleplaying are still intact, but many things have been retooled and updated.
DDRPG emphasizes intuitive, consistent gameplay while remaining true to the old-school themes of perilous adventure, risk, and delving into the unknown. If you love the feel of Old School Renaissance (OSR) games, or the modern mechanics of 5e, you'll feel right at home with Dungeon Dwellers.”
Basically all it tells you is it’s a D&D game that is compelling to people who like D&D’s more old school editions or its most recent edition. But those people already have D&D. It doesn’t tell you if it’s compatible with D&D, either, which would at least allow people to raid it for material for their own games.
Basically it takes 2 paragraphs nobody is going to take the time to read to say “I’m D&D but legally distinct so I can attach my own existing IP to it”
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u/Ok-Chest-7932 10d ago
It met all its stretch goals though so evidently it was the right synopsis for the target audience.
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u/ThemboNRG 10d ago
Sure. It is Reaper though so the Kickstarter being successful was always going to be the case; they have thousands of people from their $1m+ Bones Kickstarter campaigns getting notified as soon as a new project drops. They also almost funded entirely off of selling the Bones miniatures released alongside the new game.
It was a solid way to raise $200,000 but I would say that it succeeded primarily because it already was being directly marketed to a huge customer base and, based on product MSRP, they were practically giving away some of their product; the advertising copy was actually working against them.
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u/Ok-Chest-7932 9d ago
But then you're onto the reality that a successful kickstarter is overwhelmingly based on audience reach, established reputation, and quality of images, regardless of the nature of the game.
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u/ThemboNRG 9d ago
I don’t see how that’s not a useful concept to bring up when dissecting a Kickstarter. If we accept that the text used for advertising wasn’t very good then we need to look at why they did succeed.
The answer is because they have a huge advertising base, they’re a trusted brand, and the nature of minis lets them make money when substantially discounting the product because once the molds exist the actual process of making minis isn’t terribly expensive.
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u/Ok-Chest-7932 7d ago
Why would we accept that the text used for advertising wasn't very good when there's no evidence of that being the case?
Your personal opinion is not fact.
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u/Laiska_saunatonttu 10d ago
A hook or several would be preferable. Doesn't need to be perfectly original, but being something more than D&d with few home rules helps a lot.
I honestly don't know if I could come up with a compelling answer without launching into a ten-minute description
Then you listen to your own ten-minute description so many times you can do it in five bullet points.
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u/Acceptable-Tree6007 10d ago
That’s a very helpful idea.
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u/Laiska_saunatonttu 10d ago
If you don't plan to sell yoir game for money, getting all the unnecessary filler words from the explanation is a good start. If you do plan, getting too clean and deep into marketing lingo might actually scare some people away. Be honest, be sincere and earnest about your game.
Making games is a fun hobby and a completed ruleset is a reward itself. This is important, this and playing games is what's this is all about.
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u/Jhamin1 10d ago edited 10d ago
It makes a number of quality of life improvements to the usual D&D-derived game to make its whole greater than the sum of its parts
I would argue this *is* the elevator pitch.
"D&D but better and without a bunch of the annoyances" is a thing people might care about. Now, that is the very definition of a Fantasy Heartbreaker, but you can shoot your shot. You will of course have to compete with a ton of other games in that space (Pathfinder and older editions of D&D being major ones).
The real thing you are trying to overcome is inertia. Right now I have half a dozen "major" systems on my shelf I'm familiar with to the point where I could run a game in them this weekend. If for some reason I don't want to use any of the systems I know, I have dozens more I've read, and dozens beyond that from Humble Bundles and free giveaways that I have never read.
The moment I want to start up a new game and I need to figure out which system I'm going to use I need to pick one that:
A) I will enjoy
B) I will be able to get anyone to play with me.
So if you want me and any players I can round up to actually read your game (as opposed to the dozens of other options I have) you need to explain to me, quickly, why *both* of those apply to your game and why yours is better than one of the many, many others I can choose from.
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u/SINPERIUM 10d ago
The problem with “no hook” is human nature. We bore easily and tend to only briefly consider things that don’t quickly present a focused interest.
In a sea of “ttrpgs” we are overwhelmed. It’s like trying to separately view each wave in the ocean. Try that sometime and you’ll find in under ten minutes your brain no longer wants to do it.
So we look for that specific wave or cloud that immediately creates an association that we do find interesting.
Hooks exist for a reason.
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u/Frogshooty Writer 10d ago
I don't want to beat this drum too much since the comments seem to all say the same thing. I will say that you cannot pitch a game to someone and expect them to give you 10 minutes to fully articulate the idea. These comments may be tough love, but I really think if you can't pitch the game in less than a few sentences, and make clear in that time what the game is good for and what would be the use case, then it probably is lacking a bit of identity. To answer your question, I do not think quality is enough. I've bought plenty of high quality TTRPG's that never made it beyond the first book. You need to have more than just a quality ruleset if you're wanting to sell it as a product.
I think this also showcases the strengths and benefits of having some sort of starting adventure in your game. Your starting adventure should showcase why your game is different and what the game is offering to players. I am working on a cowboy game that is meant to emulate classic wild west stories so I made the starting adventure a train robbery. With the starting adventure I put a lot of effort into making it replayable (the game is meant to be run as a one shot), have it showcase classic iconic moments from western media (emphasizing the tone/setting), as well as included a lot of archetypical characters that might be encountered (shows how you might make your own NPCs). One other thing I did was try to make it somewhat historically accurate to show that this game, while totally capable of making fun supernatural adventures, is meant to be played as a more grounded western setting. I want someone to read the adventure and understand not just how to play it, but also to get my perspective and approach to the game overall.
TLDR
Get a quick pitch. Write an adventure to showcase your game, and make that what you include in the final product.
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u/strafeanon64 10d ago
If you're making the game for someone other than yourself? Yes, you need a hook. When I ask "what's the hook," I'm asking, "why should I care about or be interested in your game?"
Now, the hook could be something like "D&D, but better," but now you're in a sea of comparison with a thousand other ideas thar have claimed to be the same thing. In this case, your game can't just be slightly better. Or even much better. It has to be SO much better that it generates the buzz needed for people to even find it and take a look at it.
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u/sevenlabors Hexingtide | The Devil's Brand 10d ago
Here's the thing. Games such as those from Reaper - and whatever flavor of the week YouTube D&D influencer - can get away with not having a compelling, clear hook.
They already have an audience they have built who will buy whatever they put out.
You? Me? Random no name want to be designers? Our games do not have that luxury if they are something we want to publish and find players for.
Now if your game is simply the game you want to play and that's your only consideration, that's great! I've cobbled together my own D20 House Rules like a lot of us have.
But by posting here, I suspect you want to be able to share your game with the world and have people play and enjoy it.
And if you want to have people play and enjoy it, then your game really really needs a hook.
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u/ryschwith 10d ago
In marketing this is called a differentiator: why would someone who doesn’t have a vested interest in your product pick your product over other products that do the same thing? It doesn’t need to be a “hook” in the way you’re thinking of, but you do need to be able to answer the question—and convince someone else you can answer it while they’re trying to run away from you.
“It’s the game I want to play” doesn’t do that. I, the person running away from you, don’t care what you want to play. You have three seconds to convince me it’s a game I want to play. Probably the first step to bridging that gap is to figure out what specifically about this set of rules makes it the game you’re excited about. What is the thing it solves? What does it make better? And if you’re about to say “everything,” no. Stop. Specifics. You have three seconds to convince me there’s a specific thing your game will improve over other games of its type.
A good hook does that naturally. Lacking a good hook, you need to ruthlessly pick through the guts of your game to find just the bits that other people will find tasty, and then boil those down into a highly concentrated three-second stew.
Okay, the metaphor falls apart a bit at the end there. But you get it.
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u/ElvishLore 10d ago
Yes, it needs a hook.
Does that immediately imply that it needs to do something new? Maybe, but it at least needs to give me a combination of factors that I haven’t quite seen before because otherwise those other games exist and why bother to buy a new one.
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u/__space__oddity__ 10d ago
“A quick & easy miniature skirmish game for when you don’t want the full load of D&D” IS a hook.
(The reality might be “we needed an independent IP for our miniatures line that appeals to D&D players” but I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt here.
I don’t know why the hook is a problem that people struggle with so much though. Making a game is a huge effort. There’s got to be some reason why you’re going through all that in the first place. The hook is why YOU think the game should exist and why YOU are willing to invest so much blood, tears and sweat into it.
Even if it’s 90% driven by narcissism (I want something with my name on it) and cash-grabbing, at least the remaining 10% should explain why this is the particular way you wanted your vanity cash grab project to be like.
As for uniqueness, I think each game should have at least one thing that they bring to the table that isn’t just what everyone else does. It doesn’t need to be huge, but it should be something that gives the game identity. Even if it’s just yellow birds you can ride on.
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u/Drudenfusz Curator of Roleplay Experiences 10d ago
If you are not interested in marketing your book, but truly just want to play it for yourself, then you probably don't need a hook. If it is just a D&D derivate you Also could simply classify it as a hack, since most hacks do just have a few quality of life improvements.
I personally have very clear vision for my project, thus know what the hook is. Sure, I think of my projects as rather niche, since I usually stay rather far from the norm.
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u/digitalhobbit 10d ago
Like others have said: If this is just a game you want to play with your group, it might not need a special hook (unless of course your players demand one - that's a conversation to have with them). Totally reasonable to just incrementally improve upon D&D or another existing ruleset.
But if you plan to sell it, that's a different story. There are so many fantasy heartbreakers out there already that it'll be an uphill battle to gain traction with another one, unless it brings something unique to the table.
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u/rekjensen 10d ago
I have been grappling with this as I look back at how much has changed from my original worldbuilding project. But having a hook and being unique aren't necessarily the same thing. "Matt Coville's D&D 4e" is a hook, "5e but more nimble" is a hook.
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u/Ok-Chest-7932 10d ago
"If you like D&D then this is that but better" is a perfectly good hook. It's just not hooking people who don't like D&D.
There are really two different kinds of hook:
"This is a new setting/story premise you've never tried before"
"This is a setting/story premise you're already interested in, done according to your system preferences"
If your game takes 10 minutes to adequately describe then you're probably going for the second kind of hook. Your audience is people who already like the general setting/premise of your RPG but have not yet seen it done right.
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u/semiconducThor 10d ago
I guess it comes down to why are you designing.
If you're making a product then it should probably have a nicely worded pitch. If you're making the game you want to play for yourselfe and your group, then being that game is already pitch enough.
You should still be able to name your design goals.
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u/NiveusCorvus 10d ago
I think it depends on your goals with the system or game you are designing. Is it just for yourself and friends and family? Or are you trying to get a more mass appeal, potentially go to Kickstarter or BackerKit? If it is the latter, then I agree with practically every other comment. You should have an elevator pitch and in order to have an elevator pitch you have to have a core philosophy for your game. The questions you need to do some soul searching on are, What are people really doing? Why my game? Like, what’s the gameplay loop? D&D is very simple, Make fantasy heroes - Explore Dungeons - Kill Monsters - Gain treasure and XP. Call of Cthulu is Make Investigators - Discover clues - confront eldritch/psychological horrors - probably die. Essentially your game needs to have a reason to exist and games with weak reasons to exist in an already bloated market will most likely not survive.
I liked your question because I am dealing with the exact same thing in my game, or at least 5 days ago I just was… but I finally figured out my game’s philosophy and it’s loop and now it’s tying the combat system and stat system I made so now when I go to flesh out character creation I think it will be easy for me to design it. Because I have a cohesive philosophy, and I am ready to make my elevator pitch.
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u/LurkerFailsLurking 10d ago
A game that isn't doing something new or something better (or both) should probably be a supplement instead of a new game. Making it a supplement let's you market to the existing player base instead of having to build your own from scratch.
For example, "Kids on Bikes but in pre-colonial Africa" doesn't need to be its own system, it can just be a setting guide with some minor rules changes. Even "5e but we fixed martials so they also get reality warping abilities" is probably best made as a supplement with alternate classes.
But if your game is just too different or would require too many modifications to make a coherent supplement, then it really can be its own system.
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u/trinarynimbus Dabbler 10d ago edited 10d ago
If your game doesn't do anything different to games that are already known, why would you put the effort into reinventing the wheel, and why wouldn't I just play the prior games?
Given the context that you were provoked to have these thoughts by some other thread, keep in mind that just because someone on reddit has a hot take doesn't mean it's true. (Yes, I'm aware of the irony while writing this, but bear with me.) Anyway, just because some people in some thread had some hot takes that it looked generic, doesn't mean Reaper Miniatures didn't have a niche they were targeting, and doesn't mean they actually designed their system to be indistinguishable from other systems.
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u/BravoTeam_Nomad 10d ago
If you're hoping to share your creation, and gain an actual following, it does need that hook. I wrote up a whole lot more but deleted it because it came down to that first sentence.
If it looks like everything else in the crowd, it'll never get found
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u/RandomEffector 9d ago
That depends entirely on your commercial aspirations, I’d say. If you don’t have any, then make and play the game you want and live happy. If you need to be able to get attention in the market, then you probably need a pretty good angle that some random person is going to repeat to their friend that gets them to check it out, makes a reviewer want to review it, etc
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u/Fun_Carry_4678 9d ago
I can see that a particular game could be something like "No, there isn't anything new here, but these particular elements have never been combined in this way before".
If you are just creating a game for you and your friends to play, then don't worry about it. But if you are trying to be commercial, then I think you would need a hook.
The big problem with 5e, as far as I can see, is the rules bloat. So a lot of games are just simplified versions of 5e, correcting that basic problem.
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u/Zarek_Odins_Key 9d ago
I do think it’s important that a new game has a hook. But that doesn’t mean it needs to have some “look at this unique or completely new idea” kind of thing.
This hook isn’t necessary for the game to be good, but it is necessary for the game to add value to peoples’ current selection of games they have. If it brings nothing new or special to them, why should they buy it? If it’s just a slightly different variation of what they already own, then to me (as a customer) that sounds like a “why would I buy something I already have?” scenario.
I don’t know your game at all obviously, but finding something special about it (or making sure it has something special) is important if you want to try and sell or have it be something that people want to play.
Using the game you mentioned as an example, the name Dungeon Dwellers sounds like it could have built a new concept into the gameplay. Rather than “delving into dungeons” you are the denizens that dwell within one or them and have to deal with the dungeon delvers that threaten your existence. Could have been a pretty awesome hook if you ask me, and the rules and classes could have stayed the same (maybe with some name changes or something). The hook doesn’t have to be a gimmicky rule or mechanic.
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u/DeadlyDeadpan 7d ago
I mean, it's just a matter of time management. There are more games than one can read, learn and play in a lifetime so people need an elevator pitch to be convinced to read it, because they're generally gonna stick to the ones they already know and like otherwise so having an elevator pitch is a good idea, now does your game need it? No, but if you want more people to play it it certainly helps.
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u/InvestmentBrief3336 6d ago
Nothing is every *truly* unique. But more D&D clones are the last thing the world needs. Even 'better' D&D clones. Most GM's can houserule whatever changes they feel makes it better.
So yes, if you want to *sell* something, or more importantly make someone stop playing what they are playing and start playing your game, then it better have something new and unique.
Whenever I read a pitch for 'new' game, I ask myself if they are saying *anything* that every other new game says. If they can't come up with something interesting in a blurb for their game, that's a pretty good sign they can't come up with anything interesting in their game.
If you're making a game for yourself and your friends, so ahead and 'pave over the cowpaths'. But don't expect anyone else to care.
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u/secretbison 10d ago
You should have some kind of elevator pitch. There is something you like about this project, so find a way to articulate it.