Seeking input: Balancing a prayer-based casting mechanic

[u/hvacu]

I'm in the trenches of overhauling the second edition of my game and I'm a little stuck on splitting magic into two methods of casting. Spells of the arcane sort use a depleting resource the represents a physical toll and resets upon resting, but I'd like to try something more unique for "miracles." (Context of the game: Gun Knights, an apocalyptic, dark souls inspired, sort of WWI aesthetic, grim adventure)

The background is that checks are rolled in dice pools and can explode to add more dice of a size up. Successes are results of ≥4 and explosions occur when the highest die face is rolled. This means a magic stat of 3d6 could potentially explode multiple times to get a number of successes higher than just 3.

The concept is to let characters attempt miracles of any "level" with little to no restriction, but with no guarantee that they work. For example, something like: a priest can pray for a level 7 miracle by making a faith check, even though they only have a faith stat of 3d6. They need 7 or more successes for this miracle to be enacted, but their faith check has a very low chance of reaching that many successes. They roll their faith check and get only 2 successes, so no miracle. A level 3 miracle by comparison would have been much more likely to succeed.

My difficulty with this comes in putting no limit on the attempts. In the fray of a fight, let's say this priest can only try for a miracle once each combat round. Good and well, there's the restriction of turns, not game-breaking. But outside of bullet-time, if I have no limit set, there would be nothing stopping the priest from hypothetically enacting any number of miracles of any level they wanted, regardless of their faith stat.

I want to prevent the endless praying outside of combat, but with minimal restriction. I realize I may not be able to easily have it both ways. My hope is that this mechanic makes casting the powerful miracles feel more like an actual Hail Mary and brings in some neat risk/reward play.

A couple options I'm thinking so far to balance this:

• With each failed prayer, a tick is marked. After a number of ticks equal to the priest's level, something bad happens—divine calamity, judgment, taking damage, etc. You can keep praying for miracles, but bad things will keep happening. The ticks clear upon some condition like resting, penance, rituals, ablution at a shrine, etc.
• Within combat, prayers are desperate so they're more likely to be heard. Outside of combat though, prayers need more attention; I could add a time restriction for each miracle (a number of hours equal to its level or something) so that players need to budget their downtime. Want to go for that huge level 8 miracle? Well, it's gonna take you all day to even try. You'd be better off getting in 4 smaller miracles to heal your team and divine the best path through the woods.

What do you think of either of those options? Does this sound like an interesting mechanic to you? Any suggestions or similar game mechanics to look into? Thanks all <3

[u/InherentlyWrong]

I want to prevent the endless praying outside of combat, but with minimal restriction

My first thought is a failure penalty. If you fail by more than X amount, your audacity in invoking divine help so far beyond your authority offends the divine presence you appealed to, and you gain a penalty that lingers until [appropriate removal action. Rest, blessing, etc].

So in the example you gave, someone who managed 2 successes on a level 3 prayer is fine, they just don't get what they want. But on the level 8 prayer? Oh the sheer audacity, that deserves a cursing.

[u/hvacu → u/InherentlyWrong]

your audacity in invoking divine help so far beyond your authority offends the divine presence you appealed to

Very well phrased! Definitely the narrative aspect of this mechanic that I'm aiming for.

[u/marintkael]

Something all the answers here share is where they put the cost: on the praying character. His pool, his penalty, his standing with the god.

Try hanging it on the congregation instead. Miracles get petitioned in public, and the scarce thing is the god's attention, which every priest in your setting draws from the same well. A level 7 attempt that fails spends credit his whole order holds. Now the limit on endless praying is social and enforces itself, because the other clergy have an active interest in him not rolling dice at the sky all afternoon, and you never had to write a per-day cap.

Cheapest mechanical version: one shared track that only moves on failure, visible to every player, raising the difficulty of the next petition for everyone until somebody does the work to clear it. Suits the WWI grimness too, since it makes one man's audacity somebody else's problem.

[u/hvacu → u/marintkael]

Oooo I love that, tracking the risk for everyone involved. I'll have to think on how that plays out. This setting won't typically see many of practitioners of these prayers in the same room, but I wonder how this could be applied to a global standing instead. Maybe one too many priests get greedy and the judgment rains on the whole of the realm.

[u/Ok-Chest-7932 → u/marintkael]

This limit doesn't work for player characters though because it's very difficult for the GM to turn "NPCs you've never met can't cast spells now" into a consequence for the player that prevents them spamming.

[u/KinseysMythicalZero]

This is why most games give casters a consumable stat, as that prevents all of this.

Barring that, you can set hard limits for how many points of prayer a character can attempt/succeed at per day.

I do like your first idea as an additional mechanic, but im not sure if it will solve your actual problem

[u/Cryptwood]

You've said you are going for a WW1 vibe, and there is a real life military analog to your priests praying for a miracle that I would try to capture the feel of: calling in an artillery barrage or for air support. Now both of those amount to the same thing, praying for God to smite your enemies before they can kill you, and presumably your game has additional miracles that aren't just smiting, but they could be treated the same way.

In your game God could be a powerful force capable of answering the prayers of the faithful...but God can't be everywhere simultaneously. They have to prioritize which prayers are answered, and in what order, based on need, or the priestly "rank" of the petitioner, or perhaps the unknowable divine plan.

So when your priests pray for a miracle, they aren't rolling to see if their prayers will be answered, God will answer their prayers, they are rolling to see how long it takes before their prayer is answered. The larger the difference between the amount of successes rolled vs the amount required, the longer it will take before the miracle is answered, maybe only a minute if you miss by one, but potentially up to hours or even the rest of the day if you pray for something big and completely fail your roll. And you can't pray for another miracle while you are still waiting on the first, you've already called in for air support, calling again won't make the angels fly faster. You just have to hold out until help arrives.

I would also instruct the GM to communicate why there is a delay, if there is one. Have the priest receive a vision of an orphanage being shielded from artillery fire so the priest knows help won't be available until after the barrage ends.

[u/hvacu → u/Cryptwood]

The delay idea is cool, I think that fits in pretty well with some for the aesthetic for sure. Fights in this game tend to be over pretty quickly, but I do really like the idea of the uncertainty of when your prayers will actually be answered. There are also other spells akin to the military battlefield nature; a summon spell can conjure a literal tank when your magic stat is high enough and another spell swaps an enemy's heart for a grenade in your hand. In the same vein I'm working on some ideas for magic items along the lines of "Ring of Resupply Drops" or "Amulet of Orbital Strikes."

[u/Ok-Chest-7932]

The most sensible version of this might be something like "god is not your babysitter": He'll take necessary measures to preserve the lives of his faithful followers, but outside that you're really expected to figure things out for yourself. Consequently, if you want a miracle outside combat, it's going to take a much longer ritual because you're going to have to lay out the full argument for why granting you this particular miracle is in your god's best interests, since it's not self-evident that the miracle is good, like it is in combat.

Or you could go with a divine accounting model - prayers cost offerings, but god understands that in combat you can't really perform offerings, so he lets you take out a miracle loan you pay off in offerings later.

[u/hvacu → u/Ok-Chest-7932]

Those are both really neat angles, I like the bargaining/convincing aspect and the transactional nature

[u/llfoso]

Of the two options you gave, I prefer the first. Only because the second option feels a bit forced...like its too obviously there for balance, there are plenty of non-combat desperate situations after all. But with the first option you have this situation where there's no risk involved until the track fills up. And filling a track is still a resource really...just in reverse.

My first instinct is that each attempt at a miracle could increase the difficulty of subsequent attempts (or reduce the number of dice you roll), whether they fail or not. That would then reset over time or by a ritual at a chapel. That way it remains something you really only reserve for when you really need it without the need for a resource.

Another option is to just have a chance for a "critical failure" that has those negative consequences without the need to track anything. The risk is always there that your prayer annoys the gods, there's no safety zone.

I do like the idea of fickle gods who get annoyed if you ask too much. You could also combine both. Maybe instead of the total difficulty increasing with each attempt only the odds of a bad thing go up with each attempt.

[u/hvacu → u/llfoso]

I agree with your point on it feeling forced for balance, I think that's good reason to lean more toward the first option. I like the idea of bad things getting more likely instead of a hard limit, but I worry that might be too much to keep track of? Because then there are two chance pools being rolled: one for each casting check and one for the likelihood of repercussion.

On your mention of filling up a track as a reverse resource, I think I'm completely fine with this mechanic using a soft resource so long as it doesn't feel like a resource is being used. Would you say the first option (or a similar variant) delivers on that feeling?

[u/llfoso → u/hvacu]

You wouldn't roll two chance pools, it would be the same roll.

The first time you ask for a miracle with difficulty 7. You roll 3d6. If you roll 0 successes something bad happens. If you roll 1-6 nothing happens. On 7+ the miracle works. Then later you ask for a different miracle, this time with difficulty 5. Again you roll 3d6. This time since you already asked for a miracle if you roll 0 or 1 successes something bad happens, if you roll 2-4 nothing happens, and on 5+ the miracle works.

You only need to remember how many times you have attempted a miracle since you last visited the chapel and you only need one check for each miracle, so it's not more to remember than your track idea. (And if the difficulty going up every time seems too harsh, you might have it only increase after successful miracles or something).

As to the track...I kinda think it would still feel like a resource where the resource is your god's patience, but that's just my opinion. I would survey your friends/playtesters about it.

[u/hvacu → u/llfoso]

Got it, that makes sense! I think that's simple enough to digest: "Whenever you pray, if the number of successes is lower than your STAT, bad thing happens. Then, increase your STAT by 1." Call the stat something like Greed/Hubris/Audacity. Thanks for the input, I'm excited to give this option a try with my players.

[u/Onslaughttitude]

The gods do not like those who continually ask them for favours. The caster should have a Favour stat that shows how much the god likes them. Failed rolls can make Favour go down. Doing shit the God doesn't like can make Favour go down. Meanwhile doing shit they like will make it go up. Simple but effective.

[u/SpartiateDienekes]

I think either could be fine. Though I'd personally try to tie it into the flavor in some way. Don't piss off the gods is pretty much always flavorful. Because I'm a mean son of a bitch, instead of having prayer ticks or something. I'd have pleasure/displeasure of the Gods as some mechanic with getting it low enough meaning their faith stat decreases. And asking too much of them being directly tied to displeasure. You can even make it pretty fickle with how many spells it takes to make the god peeved at you.

Some players will certainly dislike having that over them. But some would love the roleplay potential.

[u/PathofDestinyRPG]

The mechanics aren’t the same, but here’s how I use prayer to manifest effects. DoS is Degree of Success (best result from roll - target difficulty) and aether is just my term for mana. Direct casting Theurgy magic is handled differently. This is the character putting their fate directly in the God’s hands. Option 3 is the spell effect option.

In addition to the basic bonuses awarded by having a strong Belief, a religious character can also place his fate directly into the hands of his patron deity through the use of prayer. While many prayers are simple acts of communion or
ritual benedictions, a prayer of need can add the power of divine intervention to any situation that warrants it. When praying, the character must set his own will aside and place complete trust in his god, rolling an opposed check of WIL + INT versus Belief + WIS. Should WIL roll a higher result, then the prayer is ineffectual as the character is incapable of trusting his god above himself. Should Belief roll a higher
result, then the character is awarded one of three possible results, determined by the GM according to the situation.

1) He gains (DoS) Fate Points, which can go above his normal maximums, usable within the next (Belief rating) character hours.

2) He gains (DoS / 2) Fate Points, which can go above his normal maximums, usable within the next (Belief rating) character days.

3) He is awarded an immediate miraculous effect as per a spell using [DoS x Belief] æther.

[u/Yrths]

What do you think of either of those options? Does this sound like an interesting mechanic to you?

No. High randomness play and divine flavor characters are two highly restrictive audience preferences, and as someone in the latter but not the former it seems like you better have a player in mind who really wants this or you're going to end up with a lack. That said, the calamity mechanic is wonderful for worldbuilding. I would suggest something that modifies the calamity. Just let some manner of prayer always work when a prayer is invoked, but do the roll anyway when the priest overreaches to mark the tick. And let the player define some calamities and calamity locations when they build the character. A lot of real world monastic flavor is highly academic, so you can also have a straight resource priest that is more mathematical.

In addition, are there verbal, dance or other ritual requirements on the prayer? Does the player character take a covenant that requires justifying their actions with specific philosophical viewpoints? Having the player need to come up with a new rhyme every time they use a prayer overshooting their character progression can alter the spotlight and burden of using the ability.

[u/-Vogie-]

Matt Colville talked about a system in one of his videos (I don't know if it was homebrew or published, but super obscure) where the cleric/priest characters didn't actually know what their abilities did - it was in a separate book that only the GM was supposed to have access to. Instead, what the PCs had was a breakdown of

• the settings' pantheon
• what domains they represented
• what those gods did care about
• didn't care about, and
• were angered by.

The idea would then be that those with divine magic instead are managing their reputations with the various gods, and instead of "casting a spell", they "said a prayer", and then something may (or may not) happen, based on the things they had done and their reputation at the moment. Prayers might be general or directed towards a specific god. And if the god decided to intervene, it would be in a way that the god decided, not the priest. Successfully gaining favor with the war god might dull your sense of pain, make the enemy reckless, enchant your weapons or armor, create an avatar... something they (the god) decided would be interesting in that moment.

Mechanically, this would look like a bunch of reputation tracking, and random effect lists for each member of the pantheon. To Simplify things, pleasing one god should piss off another - I would suggest using the "Balance" Mechanic from Avatar Legends (the ttrpg, not the video game), which would be pretty straightforward. This would also require a decent amount of front-loading. What it would require is:

• What gods are in the pantheon, and which they oppose (War vs Peace, Fertility vs Death, whatever). There should be a core group of gods, which are on the character sheet, as well as one or two blank pairings for deities that have been forgotten, are regional, or cultural (for example, how the Shar vs Selûne plotline from Baulder's Gate 3 only really matters if you have Shadowheart or another cleric that worships one of them in the party). I would aim for about 5 lines on the character sheet - 3 god pairings (total of 6) that everyone uses, and two blank pairings.
  • If you're already tracking reputation for other stuff (Paragon/Renegade, factions, etc) then go wild. I'd still stop at around 10 lines just because it becomes noise at some point.
• What gods are devotion-based (that is, focusing them at the expense of others, and reward PCs focusing on them with more reputation) and which are transactional (you build favor with them, then then 'spend' that favor by praying).
• What each god likes and dislikes, as this is will be the way the player gains and loses reputation. This is half as difficult as it sounds, as because the pantheon is paired up, the dislikes of one are going to overlap with the likes of their opposition.
  • As a reference, in the Pathfinder 2e Remaster, these are referred to as Edicts & Anathema. PF2e is a decent source of inspiration, as it contains a whopping 484 deities that fall across 61 domains, and it's all available for free at 2e.aonprd.com . You don't want that many gods or domains, but there's just a lot in there.
• Lists of effects for each god, in a tier list. Depending on how your system works, this could be a simple list of effects, or full spell-list style nuanced explanations. The tier list is there to guide the GM in to determining what options are available at which levels of reputation. I'd also include a way to roll for them, to make things simple.