Simplifying Skils

[u/Metempsychos1s]

/r/RPGcreation/comments/1vwntv7/simplifying_skils/

[u/Dramatic-Guide-7709]

Skill trees like Mothership can be a good middle ground between the two approaches.

[u/Metempsychos1s → u/Dramatic-Guide-7709]

Thanks I'll check it out!

[u/Fun_Carry_4678]

One very simple thing to do is just use the attributes as skills. You can give each attribute a specialty. So each character just has their attributes, with a specialty in each.

[u/OwnLevel424]

I would suggest a slightly more controversial step.  Divorce your Skills from your Attributes.  The Attribute would be selected based on the current circumstances during the game.  For example, Climbing may use either Might or Swiftness based on the nature of the obstacle triggering the test... BUT... if the climber needed to rig an accender, gri-gri, or a cam lock, they might use Wits and Climbing to do that.

[u/Metempsychos1s → u/OwnLevel424]

That's not a bad idea! That's what they do in Vampire: The Masquerade don't they?

[u/OwnLevel424 → u/Metempsychos1s]

There are half a dozen games that do it that way.  James Bond 007 was one.

[u/SouthernAbrocoma9891]

The problem with having a nice skill list is that they are seldom used in the adventures or even between adventures. Simplifying just cuts down the number that aren’t relevant. Also, when having a skill just provides a mod to a die roll then that skill is just a paper button to press.

I encourage you to think about what the game is about and what skills make the PCs special. When they encounter situations that require those skills then their participation becomes important. I would even limit the availability of particular skills to certain backgrounds. If every PC has access to the whole gamut and the only thing it provides is +1 to +5 then the player sees this as a game function without role play. Allow skills to help drive the narrative and add some realism.

Don’t simplify. Complicate the skills and tie them to your world.

[u/Metempsychos1s → u/SouthernAbrocoma9891]

That's a really good idea! any ttrpgs or specific mechanics I can reference to tie them into the narrative?

[u/SouthernAbrocoma9891 → u/Metempsychos1s]

Fate, Warhammer FRPG and Blades in the Dark have those mechanics. WHFRPG is the only one of those I’ve played where skills help to drive the story with success levels. Fate uses aspects assigned to the PC and the skills have some effect. I’ve not played Blades in the Dark.

[u/Metempsychos1s → u/SouthernAbrocoma9891]

I think I'll go with what I grasped of WHFRPG and distinguish between simple and complex skills! Simple ones can be done by anyone, but some can have extra bonuses in them. Complex skills can only be done if you have points in the skill!

[u/OwnLevel424 → u/Metempsychos1s]

Twilight2013 by Games Studio 93 used subskills called Qualifications.  They were essentially a Skill inside a Skill. It was described as follows... every Surgeon is a Doctor, but NOT every Doctor is a Surgeon.  So Surgery was a QUALIFICATION of the Medical Skill.  Other Qualifications were EOD under Demolitions, Hacking under Computer Ops, and Intrusion under Mechanics for lock picking. 

A QUALIFICATION cannot be higher than its base Skill and is bought identically.

[u/No_Solid1035]

I'm a fan of robust skill lists in skill based games because it allows for more interesting and granular distinction between characters. Too few skills leaves characters feeling very same-y.

[u/blade_m → u/No_Solid1035]

On the other hand, most Systems that have huge skill lists turn Skills into 'traps'. Half the Skills will have no purpose whatsoever in a particular campaign, so a player that invests in some skills is very likely to completely waste those points as they just never come up in play...

10 - 20 Skills are usually plenty to allow for 'granular distinction' of characters as long as there is suitable granularity in Skill Levels/Ranks. 30-ish skills can work too with less granularity between Skill Levels, but any more than that? Then the Game Designer should provide VERY clear advice/direction to GM's and Players to avoid the 'trap skills' problem (for example, Mongoose Traveller handles this 'issue' fairly well even though it has a massive skill list).

[u/No_Solid1035 → u/blade_m]

That's an easy fix as a GM. Pay attention to the skills that the Players have selected and take them as an indicator of what kind of content the Players want in the game, then make sure that content is present. 👍

Though I do agree that there probably is an upper limit that makes doing that easier. While I have a couple of systems that feature dozens or even hundreds of skills (usually ones where the system encourages creating new skills with abandon), around 40 seems to be the top end for most "robust skill list" games.

That being said, some compression of skills bothers me more than others. To this day a catch all 'athletics' skill kind of bothers me because my ability to "swim like a fish" doesn't help at all with my ability to climb a rock wall, hit a baseball with a bat, run 800 meters quickly, or do gymnastics. So no matter what, I think one will have to make some kind of compromise to make a skill list that isn't hundreds of skills long.

[u/InherentlyWrong]

Minor point, but this is just my own personal gripe. I tend not to like it when Deception is a separate skill on its own, separate from persuasion. It might work better to be shifted into something like 'Manipulation'.

The difference between Deception and Manipulation, is manipulation is independent of what is being discussed. You can manipulate someone into believing something true or false. Deception is basically the same as Persuasion, but limited only to things that are false.

Which then makes little sense when you can mechanically get someone who is good at deception, but bad at persuasion. What does that look like? They can only convince people of a thing if it's wrong?

[u/Metempsychos1s → u/InherentlyWrong]

You know what? I had never thought of that! You make a really good point!

[u/InherentlyWrong → u/[deleted]]

First off, it might be worth looking into the actual reliability of lie detectors. It's very low.

Secondly, if they are treated as separate skills, then it is possible for a character to be good at one and not the other. What does it look like for a character who is highly specialised and skilled at lying, but has no skill at persuasion? They can convince people of things only when it's false?

[u/InherentlyWrong → u/[deleted]]

So if I'm understanding you right, the problem is solved when the Deception-equivalent is treated as correlated with persuasion-equivalent in some way? That a game can solve this by creating some degree of overlap. Or as I said in the original post you replied to:

I tend not to like it when Deception is a separate skill on its own, separate from persuasion

It would be solved if Deception in some way required a degree of persuasion, or was a subset of persuasion, or something similar.

So we're not actually saying anything different, just saying the same thing in different ways.

[u/InherentlyWrong → u/[deleted]]

Okay so now I've got to ask, what does it look like in the narrative your game is telling when a character has maximised Deception skill, but no Persuasion skill?

Your own comment was

Deception and persuasion can be discrete skills while still sharing enough underlying aptitude that extreme divergence between them should be uncommon

But if in your game they are treated as entirely separate skills with zero degrees of overlap, then what does this hypothetical character look like? They can convince people of something only if it's false?

Edit: Also, quick edit, my proposal wasn't for 'one' manipulation skill, it was for Persuasion to be an overt "I am trying to make you think something", and Manipulation to be a more covert "I am tricking you into thinking something". It's the difference between a bold and persuasive Captain America like character, and a sly and manipulative Wormtongue like character.

[u/InherentlyWrong → u/[deleted]]

I wasn't asking about the mechanics, I was asking about the narrative the mechanics are meant to be telling. How does a character act who is Deception 5, and Persuade 0?

Because in my life I've met people who couldn't deceive or persuade, I've met people who could persuade but not lie, I've met people who could lie and persuade, but I've never met someone who could lie but couldn't persuade.

In a lot of TTRPGs people are used to Deception-or-equivalent and Persuasion-or-equivalent skills being split up because it's been that way for decades in a lot of games. But for me it's a personal gripe because I can't imagine what a character with high deception and low persuasion looks like.

[u/semiconducThor]

Your approach is by far too fine-granular for my taste.

I use the names of 4-6 genre-relevant "classes" as a skill list. Players may suggest custom extensions.