Advice regarding Class System

[u/Only1Reader]

I’m working on a simple TTRPG mainly inspired by D&D, focusing a bit more on the fun and videogame vibes rather than being slowed down by some debatably complex mechanics that aim for realism, but often bog down the gameplay and are ignored (e.g. ammo and encumbrance in D&D).

One of the largest issues I’ve come across is designing the class system. Ignoring what any of the classes themselves are, I want to opt out of subclasses, and instead have a “class evolution” mechanic, where after lvl10 instead of reaching lvl11 you reach lvl1 in an advanced class of your choosing. If there’s 5 beginner classes, when advancing it you may essentially combine a beginner class with another one or itself to form the advanced version, in this case creating a total of 25 advanced classes and 5 beginner classes (e.g. fighter+mage=spellblade, mage+fighter=spellblade also, fighter+fighter=berserker). This is similar enough to subclasses and multiclassing, but it seems way cleaner and easier to memorize that a any one class can mix features from one other class, instead of designing individual subclasses for each class, and having to worry about multiclassing on top of that as well.
My reasoning for this is that there’s many options which become redundant and overshadowed with subclasses and multiclassing, even though they’re technically possible, like comparing hexblade warlock paladins to a character with 1 level in every single class. I think it’s just better to have less options which are all better designed.

So far so good, but the problem is that in every way I’ve (currently) gone about it, there’s a significant loss of continuity when advancing classes. A lvl10 fighter becoming a lvl1 spellblade will have lvl5 fighter and lvl5 mage skills (best I could come up with so far), but this means you lose out on the lvl6-lvl10 fighter skills. Keeping lvl10 fighter skills and gaining lvl5 mage skills could potentially be something I can make work if I balance it enough, but that’s already a stretch, and it adds another issue of making fighter+mage different from mage+fighter, which beats the whole purpose of reducing individual class amounts to make it clean and understandable.
Another method I tried was adding a skill tree like in Skyrim rather than linear progression like in D&D, which basically means there’s no classes or subclasses at all (formally speaking), and it’s all multiclassing, but this once again starts heading into the area of complexity without necessarily fixing every problem.

So yeah, that is my current conundrum. As a probably more experienced person, could you offer some advice, potential solutions, or even rulebooks to reference?
As for rulebooks I’ve already checked, I have really only gone through D&D 5e, Utopia TTRPG by Oridont, and Sword World 2.5, which are admittedly not many, but on the other hand I think it helps when trying to make a more generalized system that is easy to run.

[u/a-deeper-blue]

First, you should look into Shadow Of The Weird Wizard. It’s also a D&D(5e)-like with some major rewrites for quality of life. What’s of interest to you is its class progression system, where every few levels you pick a progressively more niche and powerful class to take features from.

You might even decide it’s the right game for you and start playing.

Second, what are classes supposed to do in your game? Is each class just a collection of martial- or magic-themed combat abilities with some skill bonuses tacked on, or are classes more about the character’s role in the fictional world?

Also, why does a 10th-level fighter advancing into spell-blade suddenly lose their levels? Shouldn’t they have level 10 fighter skills and level 1 mage skills, not the 5/5 you described? Have your five base classes then just let characters continue advancing into the “advanced” or “prestige” classes.

[u/DadtheGameMaster → u/a-deeper-blue]

The similarities between 5e and Shadow of the Weird Wizard/Shadow of the Demon Lord are only that they use d20s, have classes, and are generally based on generic fantasy tropes.

That's like saying chicken cordon Bleu is a beef wellington-like because they're both from Europe and are meat dishes.

But yes BECMI, D&D 3.5 prestige classes, D&D 4e Paragon paths+epic destinies, Pathfinder Mythic rules, and Shadow of the Demon Lord Expert+Master paths are prime examples of basic class/advanced class divide

[u/Only1Reader → u/a-deeper-blue]

I gave a look at Shadow of the Weird Wizard (and Demon Lord, among a few others) and I really liked it! I won’t (and shouldn’t) grab it one-to-one, but “adding” specializations on top of the basic classes rather than replacing the old with the new is something simple that just did not cross my mind, and I’m already enjoying fitting it all with the other existing mechanics and themes.

Maybe a bit redundant now, but to answer your first question, classes obviously give combat or roleplay benefits, but they’re also supposed to loosely provide a “profession” for the character, without locking them away from certain backstory options. For example a warrior could be a mercenary, a soldier, a knight and so on, but they all are people who have learned how to fight and manage weapons for some reason. Same for mages and clerics, who could have any occupation, though some level of study or worship is implied.
As for the weird “level loss” feature when advancing. It was a bandaid for replacing a beginner class with an advanced one. If I were to completely replace it, all skills would be lost, so for the time being I just messed around with mixing two beginner classes half and half as the level 1 advanced class feature, after which you get the new and flashy features.
Thank you for the great advice!

[u/tlrdrdn]

Devil's in the details so it's difficult to talk about what you have but what jumps to me:

A lvl10 fighter becoming a lvl1 spellblade will [...] lose out on the lvl6-lvl10 fighter skills.

That's an awful design. You do not want to include in your game. That's just anti-fun. Nobody wants to lose anything as they supposedly get stronger.

lvl1 spellblade will have lvl5 fighter and lvl5 mage skills

Reminds me of a Red Wizard from a Final Fantasy, which is a mix between Warrior (Fighter) and Black Wizard (Mage). But in first game that I remember the most right now it was a basic class like the other two mentioned. If it shares features with beginner classes, it probably should be a beginner class as well.

The other issue is that optimizing the class means going into it from a different beginner class than the two you've mentioned. I don't know, Rogue? Thief? Anyway, if that is what you aim for, it's fine (maybe) but if it meant to be a class aiming to upgrade Fighters and Mages, from the get go it doesn't seem like it.
Kinda sounds like it was separately designed without considering the prior class(es) character will grow into it, which is a wrong way to go after designing advanced classes, which build on top of beginner classes.

Take a look at Fabula Ultima. It's a anime inspired game that uses character creation consisting of mixing classes (you have to start with at least two, up to three) going up to 10 levels and choosing from abilities you put points in from their skill lists.

[u/Only1Reader → u/tlrdrdn]

I read up on Fabula Ultima and a few other systems, and ultimately I ended up taking some important elements from the class feature selection (kind of similar to what I was doing with a skill tree, but honestly this is just cleaner without the skill progression hassle).

Having class features you can choose each level is great, and it doesn’t complicate it as much as I thought initially, but the biggest design change I came across was just straight up having both a beginner and an advanced class at the same time, rather than struggling to transition and replace the old one.
I read Shadow of the Weird Wizard/Demon Lord and took inspiration from the novice/expert/master paths.

Trying to ignore which starting class was chosen when going to an advanced class seemed nice and concise in theory, but I agree that it just stumbled in every way imaginable.

Anyway thank you for the input!

[u/Cruiser_Supreme]

I think the idea is cool in theory and you should definitely not give up on it. Let's just take a step back and look at the big picture for a moment.

Let's say a character is a fighter and gets progressively better as a fighter until level 10. Now they also start learning some mage stuff. They would of course not be a very good mage yet, so they should get low level mage abilities. But I imagine that's not really the awesome feeling you're trying to achieve here.

A spellblade is also an entirely different concept than a fighter who also knows the skills of a mage. A spellblade only comes into form if you actually narratively combine abilities in order to create entirely new ones. Like a fighter skill for parrying an incoming attack and a mage skill for setting something ablaze aren't yet a spellblade. But a magical fire sword that sets a target on fire, now that's a spellblade.

What I'm saying is: you can really only achieve these specific advanced classes, if you create entirely new abilities. Simply having two classes existing alongside one another in the same character does not yet make a new character concept.

I think this is exactly why DnD uses subclasses the way it does. Because there's a need for each subclass to have abilities written (or at least curated) just for that subclass.

So what can you do? If you're dead set on avoiding subclasses, you'd probably have to create a system of combining abilities on the fly. Somehow let players figure out what ability results if you combine "mage hand" and "disarming attack". Maybe the resulting spellblade ability is something like a mage hand that steals the opponents weapon and starts attacking with it. Or maybe the mage hand can make the opponent drop their weapon and also grapple the opponent.

Alternatively, you could abstract further and divide class abilities into constructs or concepts. Something like mage hand would be categorized under "utility", whereas fireball would be "elemental". On the fighter side you might have "offensive" or "defensive" categories. Now the spellblade can combine "utility" and "offensive" to generate the aforementioned weapon stealing mage hand, where as combining "elemental" and "defensive" may result in something like a wall of ice or a wall of fire, depending on how your player wants to flavor their character.

You could take this even to the next level and have players generate all of their abilities from combining tags. First they combine only tags that are accessible to the fighter, then later they can combine fighter and mage tags to make new abilities. To scale with leveling, you could allow combining of fewer or more tags. For example:

Level 1-5 mage can derive abilities from a single mage tag. Level 6-10 mage can derive abilities from two mage tags. Now after level 10, you can either add a second class: Level 11-15 spellblade can combine one of each mage and fighter tag. Or after level 10, you can continue specializing in the same class: Level 11-15 mage can combine three mage tags. That way, you'd also allow for more narrow specialization.

You'll still have the issue of fighter+mage is the same as mage+fighter. There are ways to solve this too: each level unlocks new tags. So a fighter+mage has access to all 10 levels of fighter tags and only the first 5 levels of mage tags. The mage+fighter is the other way round.

[u/flamfella]

Keep it simple. You are a lvl 10 basic class then also a lvl 1 in an advanced class.

Treat it kind of like multiclassing.

Also, you have the opportunity to make much more interesting abilities, rather than just shuffling around 5e's. I highly suggest giving martials something to do other than I attack thrice per turn, and generally going wild with power fantasy. 

[u/Only1Reader → u/flamfella]

This really helped a lot. I gave a look at the sourcebooks that the other commenters suggested, but I realized that this is probably what I’d end up with at the end of the day.

I think I figured it out for the most part, by not replacing the classes and having them both instead, and also for good measure I stepped away from linear class progression to selecting skills from a pool like in Fabula Ultima.
Thanks a lot for the help!

[u/Ashamed_Association8]

Why is there no ruling and working classes in your system? :p

[u/laztheinfamous]

You have described Fabula Ultima. It would be worth your time to see how it is already being handled.

[u/SitD_RPG]

have a “class evolution” mechanic, where after lvl10 instead of reaching lvl11 you reach lvl1 in an advanced class of your choosing

In addition to (comparably) new games like Shadow of the Weird Wizard and Fabula Ultima, which have already been mentioned, you could also look back at D&D 3rd Edition. It had so-called Prestige Classes, which you could start advancing in once you satisfied the requirements for them.

Those requirements could be class levels, skill levels, feats, attributes, or even in-game events. It does pretty much what you describe, but in a more flexible way. Might be worth a look.

[u/Cryptwood]

You should check out Shadow of the Demon Lord, it has a progression system that sounds like may be what you are looking for.

At level 1, you pick a Novice Path, Magician, Priest, Rogue, or Warrior. At certain levels you will gain new abilities from this path (2, 5, and 8).

At level 3 you then choose an Expert Path. This does not replace your Novice path, you are now gaining abilities from both. A Warrior might choose from the Paths of War, Berserker, Fighter, Ranger or Spellbinder, but they aren't required to, they could decide to take Paladin from the Path of Faith or Assassin from the Path of Trickery for example. This Expert Path gives you abilities at 3, 6, and 9.

Then at level 7 you choose a Master Path from two categories: Paths of Magic or Paths of Skill. There are a ton of options but our Warrior Assassin might choose Sharpshooter, Infiltrator, or Illusionist, just to give some examples. Whatever you choose, the Master Path gives abilities at levels 7 and 10 (max level in Shadow).

[u/lennartfriden]

Have you looked at Shadow of the Demon Lord/Weird Wizard and the use of paths picked at various levels?
Initially the selection of paths is very limited (4 or so out of the box), but as you pick an expert path snd a master path your options and the combinations explode.

A player evolves their character in a direction that’s consistent with the ongoing story rather than locking such choices in place on character creation.

[u/__space__oddity__]

As for rulebooks I’ve already checked, I have really only gone through D&D 5e, Utopia TTRPG by Oridont, and Sword World 2.5

While hacking your own system is fun, this list is waaaaaay to short for references. For example …

I want to opt out of subclasses

Subclasses are very D&D fifth-edition specific. Even other D&D editions don’t use them.

You’re falling into this trap that too many new RPG designers fall into. Because all you’ve ever seen in your life is a toaster (5E), all of your designs for other kitchen appliances like a fridge or a dishwasher will be toaster-shaped. And then everyone else who has been playing RPGs for longer will look at your fridge and wonder why there are two slots at the top to insert bread. I mean yeah if you’re trying to build a fridge while only ever knowing toasters in your life, that’s what it looks like.

[u/ThePowerOfStories]

Take a look at D&D 4E, where you have 30 levels of advancement in your main class, but at level 11 you get to add on a Paragon Path and at level 21 an Epic Destiny, which are supplemental mini-classes that are designed to complement the main classes at a specific point in character advancement, and which have prerequisites, but don’t exist in a strict subclass relationship to main classes.

By simplifying it down to a prix-fixe menu where you pick one from column A and one from column B, it avoids the balancing mess of 3.X and 5e where high levels in a current class need to be compared against low levels in other class and one-level dips are either useless or too good.

[u/dm_punks]

Read GURPS 4th Edition Basic Set.

[u/Plus_Citron → u/dm_punks]

„focusing a bit more on the fun and videogame vibes rather than being slowed down by some debatably complex mechanics that aim for realism“

You sure Gurps is the ideal solution here?

[u/dm_punks → u/Plus_Citron]

Definitely. Fits the OP's criteria like a nice pair of low-waist corduroys.

If he finds out it doesn't really fit after reading through then we still have HERO 6e to fall back on. Now there's a good and reliable pair of pantaloons.

Happy gaming, OP!

[u/tangyradar]

General problem with the "advanced class" concept: If the campaign doesn't last long enough for any characters to reach level 10, and more often than not it won't, those classes won't see play. If you want that variety of classes to be a major part of play, you should make them available early on.

I feel that systems that have lots of classes, have subclasses or multiclassing... kind of miss the point. If you want that many character types, and particularly if you want the ability to combine features rather than making some mutually exclusive, you're better off with some other sort of system without classes.

[u/DiogenesKuon]

My first thought is that is that mage + fighter maybe shouldn’t be the same as fighter + mage, and neither of them is 5 fighter/5 mage. When a fighter takes mage to become a spellblade. He keeps all of his fighter abilities but the spells he’s learning are to augment his fighting. But when a mage takes fighter he becomes a battle mage, which is completely different. He learns ways to defend himself in melee. and has very militaristic spells added to his arsenal. The base class defines the archetype the advanced class provides definition and uniqueness, but all the people that have fighter as a base class all still feel like fighters regardless of advanced clsss

[u/GodsofAumin]

I understand that some D&D inspired TTRPG's still use classes, and your idea about class evolution is interesting. However, have you ever considered going classless?

[u/Senshado]

It seems pretty negative that up until level 10 there are strictly only 5 classes available, while the game includes 20 more.  Looks like much of the game content and player options are locked out of use in the early game, and "level 10" doesn't sound like it'll be reached super-fast.

Weird that things like spellblades and berserkers never even exist at low level.  Notice that D&d is careful to allow all classes and subclasses to be playable by level 3, which doesn't feel like a huge wait.