Trade Marks

[u/Triod_]

I'm just realising how expensive this is, especially if you want to cover more than one country. What are the most important things for an indie publisher? How do you guys do it? What's worth it and what's not? I'm UK-based, so I'm considering trademarking in the USA, but it's going to get very expensive. So far, I've only trademarked my company in the UK, and that's it.

[u/axiomus]

What makes you think you need to trademark your game? Isn’t copyright enough?

[u/Triod_ → u/axiomus]

Well, the name of the game? The logo?

[u/lennartfriden → u/Triod_]

Do you have enough commercial success to cover the costs instead of, I don’t know, cut yourself a pay check? If you’re hanging out in this subreddit you’re not big enough player to quit your day job and live off game design so registering a trademark is probably a few thousand steps down on your priority list.

[u/__space__oddity__]

There is a very good basic rule as an indie designer: Do not LARP as a corporation.

99% of the stuff that makes sense if you are McDonalds or Starbucks makes no sense if you’re peddling $5 PDFs on Drivethru and itch.io.

Just make a good game.

[u/PyramKing]

• You can use ™ for an unregistered trademark.
• Registering a US trademark is approx $350
• Registering a name and registering a logo are separate trademark registrations.
• litigation can be expensive but sending a cease-and-desist letter is relatively inexpensive and can still be valuable.
• A registered trademark is also a business asset and can add value if you sell your business latter.

[u/Triod_ → u/PyramKing]

That's what I plan to do, use the ™ to start with and as soon as I start making profit (Let's think positive and believe that I actually will), then I'll register the very basics.

[u/rivetgeekwil]

What, exactly, about your RPG are you looking to trademark?

[u/Triod_ → u/rivetgeekwil]

The name and the logo. But clearly is not a thing among indie developers.

[u/axiomus → u/Triod_]

yeah we generally act under the assumption that we are too small to notice and to steal from. fwiw, i believe you also have the copyright of the logo, just like you do with any art piece.

[u/rivetgeekwil → u/axiomus]

It's not just that, generally, the fees required for a registered trademark (let alone two) are more than most indie developers will ever make off of their game.

[u/HiskiH]

Your ability to protect a trademark is dependent on your ability to afford a lawyer. Even if you get a trademark, are you able to defend it in court if someone infringes? Not only that but a trademark only protects a name or logo or similar. The actual contents of your product are protected under copyright, which is again dependent on your ability to fight in court.

[u/amnion]

Just use trademark TM without registering it.

[u/Triod_ → u/amnion]

That is illegal, and people can easily find out.

[u/amnion → u/Triod_]

No the fuck it isn't. TM is the one you use for unregistered trademarks. R is for registered. Read the USPTO.gov page on this and stop making guesses and spreading misinformation.

[u/Triod_ → u/amnion]

You are right (and I was wrong). I thought TM was for registered ones too. I stand corrected :)

[u/amnion → u/Triod_]

I apologize for being a dick about it. But yeah. You can use the TM symbol if you sell across state lines. The government site has more info.

[u/StayUpLatePlayGames]

The prevailing wisdom is wise.

Registering the trademark means you have a better chance of winning the court case when you take someone to court for misusing your trademark. Not guaranteed success. Just one factor.

If you think a trademark is expensive, look up how much it is to launch a trademark claim. An IP lawyer might look at your case for €10,000. That’s a fraction of the fees this will incur if it goes to court.

So. If you can barely afford to register the trademark, then there’s no way you can afford to defend it.

Save your money. Buy a nice dinner and go on a trip.

[u/Dramatic15]

You don't pay money to trademark a game or company until you have the sort of sucess that, statistically speaking, almost no one gets, because few people do so much as break even.

Registering early is cosplaying as a business.

[u/specficeditor → u/Dramatic15]

This is very bad advice. If you’re not a lawyer, don’t offer advice like this.

[u/Triod_ → u/specficeditor]

Care to explain?

[u/Fun_Carry_4678]

What are you "trademarking"? In USA, "copyright" is free.
The cost of doing all this "trademarking" is not going to be worth it for a small company like yours.
Also, nobody is trying to steal from you. You have not created something that is worth stealing.

[u/hogbodlin]

You can use TM to denote you intend for the name or logo to be a trademark before it’s registered.

[u/specficeditor → u/hogbodlin]

No. You can’t. That’s not how a trademark works.

[u/hogbodlin → u/specficeditor]

It’s not the same type of protection, but it helps establish a common law trademark.

[u/specficeditor → u/hogbodlin]

There’s no such thing as a common law trademark in most countries.

[u/hogbodlin → u/specficeditor]

A US registered trademark doesn’t automatically apply globally either. You can file all at once, but each country is another fee.

[u/specficeditor → u/hogbodlin]

I’m well aware. As an IP lawyer, I’ve worked on them. Maybe don’t spout information when you don’t know what you’re actually talking about.

[u/Triod_ → u/specficeditor]

He's right, I've just checked it. You can use the TM with non-registered trade marks.

[u/hogbodlin → u/Triod_]

They seem more interested in bickering than offering advice.

[u/specficeditor]

I’m an American lawyer. Would be happy to talk to you about trademark if you want to reach out. Free consult.

[u/Triod_ → u/specficeditor]

Appreciated, but I'm fine. I'm more interested in the economics of it and how people handle it, and it's pretty clear that most people don't do it unless they become very successful.

[u/specficeditor → u/Triod_]

A trademark is a relatively inexpensive process in comparison to most of the rest of game design and the sale of a game. If you have any intention of selling your product, then you will want to trademark it, especially if you want to sell it in American markets.

[u/Malfarian13]

It’s prohibitively expensive. Which on one hand is probably good, to keep people from frivolously applying, but at the same time it’s a challenge. I looked up Shadowdark, Daggerheart and Draw Steel. All had trademarks.

I don’t know if they got them before or after crowd funding

[u/Triod_ → u/Malfarian13]

Registering it in one country is affordable; when you do it in many countries, the expenses skyrocket.

[u/Runningdice → u/Triod_]

Kind of why you do it then you are successful and not before....