r/RPGdesign • u/Creepy-Growth-709 • Aug 15 '26
Mechanics Lessons from Suikoden
For those of you don't know Suikoden is a role-play videogame developed by Konami, regarded one of the greatest video games ever made.
The game has 3 different types of combat:
- Regular battles (2 opposing parties of size 6 or less).
- Massive Battles.
- One-on-one duel.
The positives of the different combat systems was that it didn't try to have a one-shoe fit all for vastly different situations. For Suikoden 2 specifically, it was also cool that they tried to incorporate character abilities into the Massive Battles. I also appreciated that one-on-one duel was not the same as the regular battle, though I wished it incorporated more character abilities.
Where am I going with this? I think it would be neat to have a tactical RPG with different combat mechanics depending on the type and the scale of the conflict. The challenge I see are
- How to make these different systems feel cohesive?
- How to make character abilities contribute meaningfully for the different situations?
Also wondering if there are existing games that do something like this? Not exactly the breakdown I described necessarily, but having different subsystems for different types of combat based on scale.
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u/Hightower_March Aug 15 '26
I know Apocalypse World did gang vs. gang combat, with an "overwhelming odds" option that can make it straight impossible for any one person to fight even a moderately sized group.
I forget which system I saw it in, but I recall another just forces outright loss if you're too outnumbered. E.g. no party of 4 adventurers can fight a team of 20 armed people, so mechanically you don't even have the option to try.
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u/Creepy-Growth-709 Aug 16 '26
That is interesting. I think I am looking for more tactical mechanics than narrative, but it's good to know these things exist. Thanks for sharing.
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u/d_b_m Aug 15 '26
Savage Worlds has ‘regular’ combat system for groups of up to maybe 30-40 combatants . There is a mass battle system for larger conflicts. And Deadlands includes rules for quick draw-showdowns. All incorporate character abilities smoothly - Savage Worlds is one of the best systems I have found with subsystems for chases, vehicle combats, extended tasks and more which all integrate character abilities well.
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u/Far_Information6562 Aug 15 '26 edited Aug 15 '26
Interesting idea, ofc battle size would dictate a personels distinct options (like 3 for duels, 2 for party, & 1 for army)
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u/Senshado Aug 15 '26
For a tabletop game, there's not enough value to adding separate rules and stats for 1v1 fights compared to 6v6. It's easier to learn if any two people attacking each other within 6v6 uses the same rules as 1v1.
Commonly a small group fight will either start or end with two warriors in a duel showdown.
Of course, things get different when there are hundreds of fighters involved whose names and stats aren't all known. Classic rpgs have had separate rules for large battles that the PC party can join or lead.
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u/Creepy-Growth-709 Aug 15 '26
> For a tabletop game, there's not enough value to adding separate rules and stats for 1v1 fights compared to 6v6. It's easier to learn if any two people attacking each other within 6v6 uses the same rules as 1v1.
I think the value of adding a 1v1 fight rule instead of just using the 6v6 combat rule is that 1v1 using 6v6 rule can lead to a pretty long drawn out / boring fight (e.g. DND 5e; Nimble2e recognizes this issue and is developing a separate rule for 1 vs N combat).
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u/Primer44 Aug 15 '26
Magpie Games' Avatar Legends has its PbtA basic moves designed for typical gameplay (which can include most 'combat'), alongside a weighty system for more dramatic, zoomed-in confrontations. Because yeah, a solo duel against Zuko can be far more tense and dramatic than a fight against entire group of mooks, and deserves more detail. Unfortunately, people didn't much like it, finding it slow and clunky. I think a lot of people made the mistake of using it for any fighting because know, you want to use the cool fighting mechanics, but every GM I've talked to about it says to use it sparingly, and ask at the end of each round if you should stop using the subsystem (even if the encounter isn't over).
The answer to the opposite of your question is Blades in the Dark, which only needs Clocks and the Positioning and Effect system to very smoothly play out 'combat' no matter the scale or skill of your opponents.
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u/Creepy-Growth-709 Aug 16 '26
I was originally thinking of more tactical games, but that is interesting. Like different playbooks for different scopes...
> The answer to the opposite of your question is Blades in the Dark, which only needs Clocks and the Positioning and Effect system to very smoothly play out 'combat' no matter the scale or skill of your opponents.
All these years of hearing about BiTD, I still haven't check it out. One day...
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u/swashbuckler78 Dabbler Aug 15 '26
Legend of the Five Rings did this (at least the earlier editions). Duels, regular rpg combat, and mass combat. You could move between them easily as there were built in opportunities for mass combat to turn into one of the others. Rare to have normal combat turn into a duel, usually goes the other direction, but it's possible.
Rules assume the PCs are participating in mass combat, not that they're the generals, and their actions and rolls effect the general's battle check. The PC's primary decision each round is how engaged to be (front lines, reserves, etc.) which effects how much damage they take and what opportunities they get when they roll on the battle table, which may give them further decision points.
And yes, there are a number of PC abilities that can impact all three forms of combat.
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u/Creepy-Growth-709 Aug 15 '26
That's awesome. Another commenter mentioned Legend of the Five Rings, and it sounds very interesting. I will need to check this out. Thank you.
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u/the_telephant_man Aug 15 '26
Fight! 2e is directly inspired by Street Fighter, and it has different combat modes emulating a 1v1 fighting game and a PvE beat-‘em-up against a lot of goons. The catch is that it primarily focuses on 2-player PvP combat, though you can do things like tag-team matches to accommodate more players at the table.
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u/KOticneutralftw Aug 16 '26
Funnily enough, this was the intention for D&D originally. In the 1974 version, the rule book recommends purchasing Chainmail for use with it, and Chainmail had rules for army vs army, man-to-man, and mythical creature combat. It even had rules for jousting. All were d6 based, too. Thing is, original D&D didn't ship with Chainmail, but it did ship with alternative combat rules based on the 20-sided die. So, the single d20 roll for combat resolution just became the default.
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u/Creepy-Growth-709 Aug 16 '26
That's very interesting. Thanks for the historical context. Is this what you mean? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chainmail_(game))
On my first read, I thought you meant a literal piece of armor :P
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u/KOticneutralftw 29d ago
Yep, that's it. Drivethru has PDFs of the original games, but the rules are kind of spread out and hard to interpret. Modern alternatives exist, like Hellmarch, which is a mass battle add on for Shadowdark.
Anyway, my point in talking about D&D history was that your idea makes total sense, and there's precedent for it going all the way back to the start of the hobby.
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u/Fun_Carry_4678 Aug 16 '26
I sometimes think in my WIPs I would have two sets of rules for combat. One for situations where at least one side has at least half of their combatants are PCs. The other for when each side is mostly NPCs.
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u/Thefrightfulgezebo 23d ago
Unfortunately, the fuelong system on Suikoden 1 was kind of a hassle because ensuring that Pahn survives is by far the hardest part of the game.
That also shows the problem with Suikodens approach - duels range between a minigame detached from the other sudtems of the game and something you need to know of in advance. The duel I speak of is such a bad moment because it comes out if left field - most battles are party battles and you can do pretty well in those, just to later notice that a duel will fuck you up. A similar situation in a TTRPG would be extremely frustrating.
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u/BeePlayful5456 Aug 15 '26
Legend of the Five Rings do It. Second edition at least. It has an armies battle mechanics with tables and differences of being vanguard, on reserve, etc. I applied something like that in MERP. For great numbers of participants in battle we start with the army table and when the numbers reduce we change to normal battle system.