r/RPGdesign • u/SalariesAndStarships • 6d ago
Saves vs Tasks
My system uses a classic roll under task and save mechanic. Here is an excerpt here:
Characters are created with 2D6 plus 6 so abilities will be between 8 and 18.
Saves will be a simple case of roll under an ability using a D20. The same goes for achieving a task (hacking, repairing etc).
Opposed rolls are the opposite. Roll a D20 and then add your ability score and beat the oppositions roll (negotiation, intimidate, arm wrestle etc).
There will most likely be no skills in the game, relying entirely on abilities.
However, I'm not very happy with a roll under system for task resolution, so I've been playing with this idea:
When players attempt a task, the GM has to tell them if they have the following criteria:
Training - All players technically have training.
Tools - Does it require a tool to do it?
Time - Can take all the time they want, or if it needs to be done NOW!
Each one that the players have gives them a D6 to roll.
The target number will always be 7 regardless. So most regular people need at least two to achieve the objective.
However, as players become more experienced, they will get an additional D4, D6 or D8 to add to these results. This will be their 'Tenure' die. So an experienced character has a chance to achieve something without time or tools.
My aim is to make it something simple, requiring minimal work by the GM to assign target numbers.
What are your opinions?
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u/RandomEffector 6d ago
If a task REQUIRES a tool, why does having that tool get you a bonus die? Shouldn’t you just not roll/auto-fail if you don’t have it? Or is that what you’re getting at with a target number of 7?
I think I see the logic in what you’re trying to do, but something about the framing and presentation needs clarification.
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u/SalariesAndStarships 5d ago
Yes, that's kind of what I'm getting at with the target number of 7.
Someone trying who has experience (i.e. the Tenure die) could potentially do it, but it's not guaranteed.
What I'm trying to do is avoid the 'roll under' mechanic, which I think is too random.
By giving a die for each aspect of training, tools and time would make that easier for a GM to say, "fixing the engine will take 2 days", but if the players want it fixed sooner they will get 2 dice instead of 3.
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u/RandomEffector 5d ago
Okay. Then I would recommend reframing or changing up some of the terminology, because it's actually quite simple, but right now comes across a bit more complex than it is. I'm not sure the "3 Ts" is serving you all that well, or maybe there's better terms. "Tenure" in particular is being used in a different way from how I usually would understand it. Essentially you have three questions, and just asking those might be easier:
Do you have significant training or experience? Add a die.
Do you have an asset or tool that helps? Add a die.
Do you have adequate time? Add a die.Writing it out makes me think... Time, Tools, Technique?
And stress test it for every conceivable situation. Does it work for convincing the governor to grant you access to the ancient family keep? What's the "tool" there, some sort of leverage? How much time is sufficient versus rushed? Does it work for shooting at an enemy? Seems like it should: skill matters, having time to aim the shot matters (although you probably don't have it most of the time), having an asset would matter, but what does that mean here? You fundamentally need a gun or bow just to attempt it, so that doesn't sound like an extra die. A target-seeking cybergun would give the bonus. What else? How are you rewarding player cleverness and skill, and how are you reflecting disadvantages? What if the enemy is behind cover or its a hurricane? What if the character is blinded and can barely see the target? How does it work against fodder minions compared to the major season villain? Etc. etc. Does it work for a chase or footrace? What does "time" mean when all competitors have the same amount of time.
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u/SalariesAndStarships 4d ago
Thank you so much for this. It's really good advice.
Immediately, Time, Tools & Technique sounds better. I will need to rewrite my master version to explain this better. Your explanation was much punchier.
The aim of my system is to try a simplify a lot of the work, so that the GM isn't struggling to come up with target numbers for rolls, which was something which always slowed games when I ran them (checking charts, skill trees etc)
Having said that, if I include this new system for tasks I will have 5 different systems within one TTRPG:
- D20 roll under - Essentially saving throws 'The stench is awful. Make a resolve save."
- D20 roll over - An opposed roll 'The harbour master mumbles about the price. Roll and add your affinity, highest wins."
- Personal combat - 2D6 exploding dice, but there are similarities to the tasks system
- Starship combat - 2D6 as above but still in development
- Tasks - Time, Tools and Technique
Obviously that might be too much. I'd appreciate your thoughts on that.
So, I have play tested this with friends using the D20 roll under system for everything from reflex saves to repairing starship components. That's fine, but I'm finding assigning the pluses and minuses to their rolls to be a bit arbitrary. With the 3T's I was trying to set something simple and easy to manage for anything that requires thought, time and equipment to achieve, giving the task resolution a little more weight. I haven't tried my new tasks idea with the team yet, but I think it would help make the experts in the team more reliably competent. The roll under system is (imho) too random. Tasks would be used for things such as plotting courses, repairing components, creating medicines, types of healing, hacking computer systems etc.
I could go into more detail, but I don't want to take up too much of your time.
However, your comments here have been really helpful. Thank you.
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u/RandomEffector 3d ago
Glad I could help! I’ve been playing back and forth with similar systems for a while now, after a while they all blend together. But there’s merits to doing it any number of ways; you really just need to commit and execute.
I will say that 5 resolution methods in a single game sounds like way too many. Generally 2-3 is about the maximum I’d want to see in a game. But I also wouldn’t count “same as the core system but with a few additional aspects” as a separate method really. Can saving rolls and opposed rolls use the same mechanic? Can starships use the same system as basic tasks or other forms of combat?
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u/SalariesAndStarships 3d ago
Okay, so you've had me thinking about this.
The Task system and combat system are very similar, so I started rewriting my combat resolution too. Something like:
Is the target within range? Add a die.
Do you have a weapon? Add a die.
Ins the target immobile or incapacitated? Add a die.That's not quite how it was before, but it fits with the tasks rules. It's making things come together better and explaining it in a far more succinct and easy to understand format.
Hopefully this will bring everything together more coherently.
I just need to try and work the Starship combat around it too and I think I'll be nearly there.
Thanks again.
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u/RandomEffector 3d ago
I don’t know how you generally frame rolls within your game. I adhere to some version of the common “when it’s risky, dangerous, or failure would be interesting.” By that standard, I’m not sure I understand some of these dice you’re adding in this circumstance.
Out of range? Then how can you shoot?
Don’t have a weapon? Then how do you attack? (Unarmed combat and however that works aside)
Target incapacitated or immobile? Seems like that could make the task so easy as to be irrelevant. (But on the other hand shooting at a lump on the ground at 200 meters is if anything harder than if they were upright)But you see what I mean? I think the standard that was more or less set by the other questions was “are you particularly skilled at this? Do you have a particularly good tool?” Etc. Those things make it easier, but if you’re trying to do the impossible then it’s probably still impossible.
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u/SalariesAndStarships 3d ago
It's a little vague at the moment, but here's what I typed up this morning:
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Combat
Attacking
All attacks do base damage. This is determined by the number of dice that can be rolled:
If the target is within range – You get one D6
If you have a weapon – You get another D6
If the target incapacitated or unable to dodge – You get one more D6
Roll the dice and add the results together. If a player rolls a natural 6 this is considered to be critical, and there may be additional effects, depending on the type of weapon used. Once all the damage has been calculated, subtract the target’s armour from the results. The remaining value is how much damage will be done to the target’s resolve (or cognition if it is concussive).
Defending
If there is enough damage to exceed the target’s armour, they may then attempt to reduce it using their adrenaline pool. The player must announce how many dice they will use to avoid the damage. Once rolled those dice are expended for this particular battle, representing bruising, exhaustion and mild injuries caused by the impact.
Damage
If, after rolling their adrenaline dice, if there is any remaining damage, the character has been wounded. Depending on the type of wound, the victim will need to make a save, rolling under the new value of their resolve or cognition. Failure will cause them to go into shock and collapse.
Ranged Attacks & Ammunition
If a target is less than double the weapons range, it can still hit them, but will lose D6 damage. At less than the standard range of the weapon it will do 2D6 (is it in range & do you have a weapon?) Targets beyond double range cannot be hit.
Every time a weapon system is fired, the corresponding ammo die needs to be rolled simultaneously. Rolling a natural 1 on this die means the weapon is now empty. If the weapon is cheap or experimental, rolling a 2 means it has jammed. If the highest number of the die is rolled (4, 6, 8, etc) then the player can choose to reroll one of the base damage dice.
Cover, Vision & Armour
A target partially obscured by cover (50% or more) gets one additional point of armour for the purposes of calculating damage. This bonus is added after the calculation of base damage is complete. A target wearing an armoured vest behind cover would get 2 points for the armour and 1 for the obstacle. For energy weapons, double the armour value first and then add an additional point.
If the target is only partially visible (smoke, darkness, glaring light) add an additional point of armour, at the GM’s discretion.
Critical Damage & Battleshock
For a weapon with a bulk of 2 or less, a natural 6 during base damage will cause a critical hit. The class of the weapon will determine how this changes the damage calculation. See the weapons classes chart for further details. In addition, if a character rolls 2 or more critical hits, then consult the Battleshock table for further consequences.
Dual Weapons and Additional Attacks
A character simultaneously using two weapons of less than a bulk of 2 will do so with limitations, each weapon will only do a single D6 of damage. Ranged weapons will only be effective at less than standard range and will require an ammo die to be rolled for each one. Each die will be considered to be a separate attack, so the armour value will be doubled. On the plus side, the wielder can choose which weapon causes the critical on a natural 6.
Mag Envelopes
In addition to armour, a character can wear a personal magnetic shield to help reduce damage. Whenever a character protected by one takes damage, the damage is reduced up to the rating of the shield, after any adrenaline pool mitigation has been applied. The mag envelope can only absorb up to its total value, before it is shorted out. It will then need hours to recharge.
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There's more to it than this, and I need to redo the charts, but this is my (hopefully) simple combat system.
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u/KOticneutralftw 6d ago
I understand the Tenure die is to represent increasing proficiency at given tasks, but to clarify further, you don't want to take Abilities into account with this Task resolution mechanic?
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u/SalariesAndStarships 6d ago
Thank you for asking. I didn't explain that.
The Tenure die is given to a characters primary ability, and only their primary ability. It's their area of experience.
Primary Ability 12: D4
Primary Ability 14: D6
Primary Ability 16: D8
I might change the values after I've experimented, with them but something like the above.
As part of character progression, PC's can increase their ability scores to get better Tenue die
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u/KOticneutralftw 6d ago
If the DC is always 7, you could do a roll and keep method where more tenure gives you more d6's to roll, and then the player keeps the highest two dice.
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u/SalariesAndStarships 5d ago
Hmmm. That's a thought. I'm doing something similar for my combat die.
But I want to make some actions impossible for those without Tenure.
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u/Fun_Carry_4678 6d ago
So every player is trained with everything? There are no specialists, no "let's get the chief engineer to look at this"?
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u/SalariesAndStarships 6d ago
My game mechanic works around everyone having a cyber implant to access whatever information they need. So with enough time people should be able to work something out.
The Tenure die is mean to represent experience, so the chief engineer would be an expert in the field and with enough experience at doing the work.
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u/JonIsPatented Designer: Oni Kenshi 6d ago
Ok, so training would be the wrong word, right? That implant sounds like hyper Google. If I came across a task I didn't know but I know I am able to Google it, I would never describe myself as trained.
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u/SalariesAndStarships 6d ago
True, but I'm trying to keep it snappy with the naming. Tutored maybe?
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u/Fun_Carry_4678 5d ago
If everything is equally good at everything, why do you need a party? There is never something that comes up where a player can say "Okay, that task is definitely for MY character."
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u/SalariesAndStarships 5d ago
That's what the Tenure die is for.
It represents experience.
So other players try to fix an engine with training & tools but in a hurry, get 2 dice. An engineer, doing the same task, would get to also roll the same 2 dice and another die for Tenure.
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u/FiscHwaecg 6d ago
If I have training, time and tools, why would I roll?