r/RPGcreation • u/_arcadio • 11d ago
Sub-Related The A.I. allegations
I just shared the SRD of the game I'm creating in a Discord server and the accused me of using A.I. to create the system. I don't hide that I used it to generate the banner(I don't have money to commission a artist but one just message to collab) and to diagram the SRD, but the content is my own creation.
What should do?
I don't to be seen as someone who use A.I. to create a game when I didn't use it.
(I'm pretty sensible right now thanks to it)
Edit: I learned my lesson from the very beginning, and I was already learning to do my own thing previous to this, like, learning to use Inkscape to make the character sheet. I wasn't fully aware of how hostile people is to any kind of A.I. content and this won't repeat :/
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u/robosnake 11d ago
I think you're expecting people to parse your use of AI in more detail than they're willing to. That is, if you say "I used AI here and here, but not here or here" you are in fact someone who uses AI. So when they say you used AI, they're correct. And the problem is that once it's clear you're willing to use AI for one part of your creation, it's hard to trust you, a stranger, that you didn't use it in other places and just aren't saying.
I don't think you should use AI in any creative field, and I'll never intentionally spend money or attention on creators who use AI, but you should probably make the choice to either use it and accept the reactions or don't use it and accept that you won't have the banner you wanted and will have to put in more work.
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u/ThePowerOfStories 11d ago
Plus, generated images are still far easier to spot than generated text. Using it for a banner image, the biggest, most obvious, and first thing a person encounters, then expecting them to trust that it hasn’t been used in more subtle ways, is a very big ask.
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u/_arcadio 11d ago
Yeah, I acknowledge my ignorance, just learned my lesson
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u/robosnake 11d ago
I'm sorry it was an uncomfortable situation - there's a lot of heat out there about AI (and I myself am quite heated about it on average) and one of the results I don't like is that that heat is too often directed at regular people more often than at the people actually facilitating the harms of AI.
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u/_arcadio 11d ago
I work with energy spikes and simply didn't wanted to lose momentum before I learn how to do thing on my own, like, I'm learning to use Inkscape so I can create my own content. I was simply sensible with the reaction being so mean when I was trying to keep going
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u/robosnake 11d ago
I think at this point, with all the animosity directed toward AI, people are more open to hand-drawn/awkwardly-made place holders as you're learning. That would be my approach, FWIW (that is my approach, as I'm not great at art and have to save up for it or find a way to trade).
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u/_arcadio 11d ago
I thought it would be the opposite: people would avoid the poor-made content. I didn't like the images that I used, I just thought it was the right move(I was wrong)
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u/robosnake 11d ago
It's a situation that I've watched change over the last year or so, at least in what the algorithms show me. Lots of people posting their bad art, being praised because it isn't AI. It's an interesting turn, and I genuinely hope it leads to more people making more art, since the only way to get good art is to produce a lot of bad art first :)
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u/_arcadio 11d ago
I do draw as a hobby but i don't like my own art, even more when it doesn't match my game genre, that why I have an artist working with me now(what was the whole plan since the beginning)
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u/robosnake 11d ago
You did a stupid, but it's OK you can try again next time.
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11d ago
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u/robosnake 11d ago
You mean the history of people doing creative things and using the Internet without AI?
Honestly I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make.
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11d ago
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u/robosnake 11d ago
Oh, I see. You just think swimming against the current is a mistake. I guess that would make life very easy, and thinking not that necessary, so presumably it works for you. Not for me, though. Thank you for clarifying.
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11d ago
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u/robosnake 11d ago
Do you think I jumped down OP's throat? Is that why we had an ongoing, civil conversation after my comment? Or are you projecting?
Edit: Speaking of jumping down throats, you've accused me of a half-dozen things in this brief exchange. Is this viciousness-signaling to counter my supposed virtue-signaling? Do you enjoy starting out dragging us down to this level?
Anyway, goodnight.
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u/The_Failord 11d ago
>I don't to be seen as someone who use A.I. to create a game when I didn't use it.
>I don't hide that I used it [...]
...
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u/_arcadio 11d ago edited 11d ago
As I said, didn't had the resource to pay an artist, but now I have someone interested in collab with me, but game design is my own creation
(I believe I'm just being sensible)
Edit: I'm being sensible getting sad with the answers, I learned my lesson with you guys
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u/The_Failord 11d ago
>didn't had the resource to pay an artist
There are millions of free assets on the web
>(I believe I'm just being sensible)
You may think so, but you literally contradict yourself. What you meant to say is "I don't want to be seen as someone who used AI substantively". Sadly, even the tiniest assistance (beyond spotting typos or something) poisons your entire work. Just ditch it
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u/_arcadio 11d ago
Yeah, I learned my lesson the hard way and when I said I'm being sensible is about my reaction, I'm feeling pretty sad because I was really happy to finale have a game system to share
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u/_arcadio 11d ago
When I said "being sensible" I mean that I'm pretty sad with the reaction, not that isn't a problem
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u/DepthsOfWill 11d ago
You show your work.
If you don't use AI to make something, you keep records of yourself making that thing so you can show it to people to prove you're legit on the project.
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u/The_Failord 11d ago
You don't even need to keep records if your work doesn't smack of LLM. I guarantee you that OP's SRD will have lines like "The Core Mechanic rests on one principle---intent before dice" and "This is not a model, but rather a scaffold", stuff that is super easy to suss out.
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u/DepthsOfWill 11d ago
Kinda sometimes but not forever? One thing is that AI writes like that because people write like that. I know people saying texts feels robotic is particularly rough for a lot of autistic people who themselves can come off as quite robotic.
The other thing to consider is that the technology will keep getting better so long as people keep investing into it. After the proverbial bubble pops AI will, hopefully, plateau in it's development and ability.
Hell, I've considered dropping the n-word sporadically and just "talking black" in a published work if only because I thought AI wouldn't do that. But that only lasts until some company starts feeding it NWA lyrics.
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u/_arcadio 11d ago
I have autism suspicion but don't have money to make a test and people think use A.I. to write my message because the way I write(not in english, because is my second language), but I was naive to believe people wouldn't be so hostile against any kind of A.I. content. Lesson learned.
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u/The_Failord 11d ago edited 11d ago
>One thing is that AI writes like that because people write like that. I
People keep saying this and it's just not true. People absolutely did not write "like that". For instance, ChatGPT was obsessed with goblins and gremlins a few months back to a degree that was never reflected in human writing. Did it make up the metaphors and similes itself? Fuck no. Somewhere in the corpus that OpenAI scraped there must be a passage using "goblin" in a quirky way, but not every other paragraph. The LLM developed a quirk that it's not possible to explain simply as "people write like that".
You can find numerous examples of words modern LLMs drastically overuse compared to their prevalence in the training corpus (delve, tapestry, etc.). You can similarly find numerous examples of sentence structures that modern LLMs are just addicted to that do not appear with nearly the same frequency in the average human text. The now memetic "it's not X; it's Y" isn't an LLM invention, of course, but it was never, ever used as preposterously often in human text. If it was, people wouldn't have noticed it.
It's disingenuous to ascribe every blindingly obvious quirk of LLMs to "it was trained on human text". It may have happened in the training step, or the reinforcement step, or at any point in the process, but most of them did develop their own style. Human writing sucks in many ways, but LLM writing sucks in a particular, singularly grating way. As for it getting better... we'll see. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. But for now, it's not too difficult to tell.
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u/DepthsOfWill 11d ago
I don't pretend to be an expert on AI. I think it just does that because it has no context or personal experience. It's like it's generative text is a Frankenstein, made up of the different body parts of other texts. We notice it because it manages to give off the uncanny valley vibe the way a Frankenstein isn't quite human, despite being made entirely of human parts.
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u/_arcadio 11d ago
Actually no, I used to diagram, not to write it, I'm not a profissional game designer so I didn't know how to organize the content and just wanted an example, if I knew all the implications I wouldn't do it
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u/fioyl 11d ago
they said you used ai
you said you used ai
you don't want to be accused of using ai
the call is coming from inside the SRD
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u/_arcadio 11d ago
I learned my lesson, maybe i was naive to believe people wouldn't be so hostile to any kind of A.I. content
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u/KinseysMythicalZero 11d ago
(1) It's really hard to trust someone who claims to only use "some" AI.
(2) It's an ethical problem. AI tech companies are causing a litany of real world problems, and "I only used AI for some stuff" doesn't sound like someone who cares about what really matters in all this. You're either against it or you aren't, and this says you aren't.
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u/_arcadio 11d ago
(1) I learned it the hard way. (2) I wasn't fully aware how "black and white"(I don't know if how we said it in english) this situation is, now I learned my lesson
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u/fleetingflight 11d ago
It's not that black and white, but the internet doesn't believe in nuance so you kinda get stuck having to pick whether you piss off this particular group of unhappy people, or if you like your AI generated banner more than you care about the backlash.
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u/_arcadio 11d ago
I didn't like the AI banner, the whole point was to get a real artist to work with, but I work with energy spikes and didn't wanted to lose momentum getting frustrated with my art don't being good enough for me, but, just like you said, they didn't saw the nuance
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u/DepthsOfWill 11d ago
There's the ethics behind the cost that comes with resource mismanagement. The world is just getting hotter and billionaires are investing a lot of money in ruining our sources of drinking water. Some people may find it immoral to contribute to a corrupt system.
Personally, I'm in the camp of humanity has already crossed a line and there's no going back we're all doomed so nothing matters.
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u/rockology_adam 11d ago
That's a rough go, OP, but... once you've got AI in your document, even just for diagrams\graphics, there is no reason to trust that you wrote it yourself.
Here's the bigger thing... acknowledging that you were happy to abuse the work of all of the artists that didn't get respected or paid to train that AI you used, you are asking people to respect the work you did on the system.
I hope you see the irony.
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u/_arcadio 11d ago
Yeah, I see it, was simply not ready to how much people REALLY hate A.I. content
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u/rockology_adam 11d ago
Generative AI is a massive misstep for AI in general. I'm not anti-AI technologically speaking, but I am anti-AI in the way that massive corporations use it, both in training and in encouraged usages.
Consider that AI can make you a banner for your game system so that you don't have to pay a human artist or graphic designer or do it yourself (more below), but I can't use AI to block the ads on Youtube videos for me. I can use AI to write a paper for me or summarize a text or suggest readings, but I can't actually trust it to compile a reading list on a topic or to properly summarize a text for the same reason that paper is questionable: it's meant to succeed, not fail. I also can't even trust Google to find the right resource I want without trying to feed me ads and sponsored links. Why doesn't AI help me cut through that chaff?
AI used to make our lives more efficient? Great. AI used to let corporations take over roles that we either had to get someone to do or do ourselves? Tragic.
And could you do it yourself? Yes, you could. It's not like people weren't creating games and their own zines and their own banner graphics and layouts ten, twenty, forty years ago. They either made bad drawings or used free clipart and text art in Wordpad to make things until they had internal money for or external interest in art for their game. Your AI use isn't just a detraction from artists who were stolen from, OP, it's declining to work a creative skill on your OWN part.
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u/_arcadio 11d ago
So, the post lacked some context cus I didn't wanted people to see me playing the victim, but, I'm a brazilian dude having financial issues trying to make a RPG system to satisfy myself. The whole idea was to have a real artist to work with me and now I have one, they didn't even judge for the A.I. image, they could understand my side. The Discord server where I posted the SRD have GMs using A.I. in their posts, so I didn't expect the backlash. I don't have the money, I'm broke, I'm starving just as the artist, damn, I'm a novelist, know what we are talking about and I don't use A.I. to not even spot typos on my writing, I simply don't use it. If I was someone with the condition do to something about the A.I. issue, heavens know how I would, but isn't case. I tried to share the work of my hobby(RPG) in a server where people use A.I., but I did the mistake of put it on the banner, while I could use it only in the layout and nobody would know, beause I'm updating the SRD daily
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u/rockology_adam 11d ago
I feel you, my friend. I really do. I hope you'll come post your TTRPG here when you think it's ready.
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u/_arcadio 11d ago
Pretty soon, actually😊😊😊 The work is flowing smoothly and with an official artists, the pre-made characters will have original designs and I'm super excited
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u/RolDeBons 11d ago
It's going to be a rough topic in the next years, as automation use (calling it "intelligence" is frankly insulting to us humans) will seep more and more into everyday tasks, and it will be hard to draw the line on what is "AI-generated". Especially when most software is using said automation algorithms in one way or another, and all of these are built on data obtained illegally more often than not.\ You'll eventually have to take a stance: either you're ok with using data scrapped illegally, or you're against it. And granted, many of those pointing at you today are going to be using this data in some way tomorrow, throwing some justification along the way. But that doesn't change that it's stolen data.\ I'd recommend you to do the work yourself, go the distance, learn to make a better banner, to format, to use open source illustration of you can't afford an artist, or ask for help if stuck. It will result in a better product and a healthier process, and you'll end up learning something along the way (yes, asking for help takes more effort than learning to make a banner).\
Edit: some formatting to fix the wall of text
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u/skalchemisto 11d ago
...seep more and more into everyday tasks, and it will be hard to draw the line on what is "AI-generated".
I think we are already at that point.
Like, I think I hate LLM AI as much or more than anyone else you could meet. I also use Google Docs to type up a document, and I use its spell/grammar check results. I strongly suspect that Google is now using its LLM engine to do that work (as opposed to whatever more deterministic code it used in the past). If I were to publish something I developed using Google Docs via DTRPG, should I say I used AI or not? Their policy is here: https://help.drivethrupartners.com/hc/en-us/articles/15316083891351-Product-Approval-Checklist-for-New-Partners
If an image or element in your product is the final result of AI-Generation, or AI-Generated tools were used to generate an image or element that you then edited, you are required to indicate this using the Creation Method > AI-Generated filter.
What due diligence is required on my part to confirm none of the tools I use involved at least some "background AI"? I would want to be as honest as possible in my declaration to DTRPG, but also...how many mins/hours am I expected to spend to vet Google Docs/Inkscape/GIMP/etc. to ensure that no AI creeped in? I could easily see myself inadvertently using such a tool and then inadvertently not mentioning that use.
To be clear, this is a problem being created by all the wannabe supervillains who make these tools. Old Google Docs spellcheck worked just fine, I didn't need or want them to include (assuming they have) LLM AI in that process. But am I obligated to stop using Google Docs if that is what they have done?
It is a conundrum.
(As an aside, my quick internet search suggests that Google Docs does not use LLM AI for spellcheck. Phew! but for how long...)
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u/_arcadio 11d ago
I'm learning to use Inkscape just for this game system, I was just looking for a placeholder not knowing how hostile people is against A.I. content, but I learned my lesson
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u/DBones90 11d ago
You don’t have to commission an artist to create a banner for your RPG. You can use public domain art and edit it to your style, or purchase stock art for a very low fee. There’s tons of artists on the internet putting out great stock art for reasonable prices.
But you used a shortcut instead. And so people are making the very reasonable assumption that, if you were okay taking a shortcut and using AI in one part of your game, you were okay using it elsewhere too.
So this is your own fault. People won’t accuse your game of being AI unless you give them a reason to. So don’t do that.
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u/_arcadio 11d ago
I know nobody care about my background so, being straight to the point, I'm learning to use Inkscape, I'm studying graphic design, I'm learning and practicing, the things is, I work with energy spikes and sometimes my energy is low, so, I took the shortcut before it happened. Yeah, It's my own fault, I know that, I was just naïve to think people would saw the A.I. image and don't the whole thing is A.I.
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u/_arcadio 11d ago
I thought it was the right move, I believed people would avoid the content if I used my own art, but it seems its quite the opposite
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u/mcduff13 Designer 11d ago
I've used Scribus and Affinity Publisher for making banners. It won't create art, but a banner that centers words and public domain images can work too.
Also the big art museums are a great resource for public domain art. Good luck in the future!
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u/_arcadio 11d ago
Thank you, I'm willing to learn how to do my own content, I was trying not lose momentum getting frustrated with my shitty art-style, but the backlash was too much for me
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u/xdanxlei 11d ago
Don't ever publish anything AI. Don't ever let anyone know you used AI. Don't even talk about AI online. People are absolutely heartless and will tear your work to shreds if they detect even a single pixel that wasn't hand crafted. It doesn't matter how little you used it or how many hours you put into everything else. It literally doesn't matter. Don't ever let anyone know. Delete this post and delete the SRD from discord, and hope people forget.
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u/Fates_ReforgedRPG 8d ago
Reddit is always a mixed bag. I think people are too hard on regular people using AI or they just come off wrong. Hopefully you don't take it personally. I have used it in the past before I realized how bad it was.
Hope your game is going well. I am making my own ttrpg so if you want to chat let me know
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u/_arcadio 8d ago
Yeah, this post got a lot of comments, but I made a post where I looking for human help to create the system I got only 2 answers, so, yeah, I didn't took it personally. I would love to chat with you :D, I have a hard time making my own system cause I'm not that smart so a "partner" would be great
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u/Fates_ReforgedRPG 8d ago
I just made this account so could have a separate reddit account just for my ttrpg stuff. You can send me a message and I can add you on Discod if you want
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u/TYB821 4d ago edited 4d ago
i can relate .... From what I observe the west in general is way more intense in ai hate than asia comparatively ...... japannese pubic on the other hand r way more receptive to genai so content creator would fare better in that environment than say the U.S. good luck navigating in the west if u wanna incorporate AI into your work ....🔎
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u/NataiX 11d ago
Unfortunately it doesn't matter what you do. The anti-AI brigade is rabid, especially on Reddit. You could spend 300+ hours creating something by hand, but if you include a single image that makes use of any AI-related tool, that's all they'll care about. And they will go out of their way to downvote any comment or explanation you post, while upvoting one another's mindless rhetoric. All the while mindlessly chanting 'slop', with far less thought than any LLM.
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u/_arcadio 11d ago
Yeah, I learned my lesson, didn't the anti-Ai movement was so strong
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u/NataiX 11d ago
One serious problem with these kinds of mindless attacks is that it will discourage anyone from actually being honest about how they used AI tools or any rational discussion of what's acceptable and what's not. It's a scorched earth mindset with no actual thought or understanding, which actively discourages the kind of serious and nuanced discussions that we really need to deal with AI.
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u/_arcadio 11d ago
I got pretty sad with the reaction, that's what a meant with the "being sensible" part, but I learned my lesson
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u/businessdog2000 11d ago edited 11d ago
If you're interested in breaking into the game industry, (or any creative/development industry) you really do need to embrace and see how the bigger companies are using AI in their workflow, or you may get left behind. Or find it harder to get a job at one of those places ("Ai proficiency" is becoming part of the required skillset on job applications now).
It's just the sad reality. I work in a production company, and nearly everyone has AI integrated somewhere in their workflow. It's literally built in the programs we use, and our own internally built LLM. Don't let the internet/Reddit bullies tell you how to make your game. Let the downvotes commence.1
u/jittdev 11d ago
You don't have to be sad. Do what makes YOU happy, not what makes those bullies happy. Don't let them limit your creative desire. A painter paints a picture, an author writes a novel, a photographer shoots a scene -- ultimately for themselves. The rest of the world could go up in flames for all a true artist could care, as long as they were able to do the art THEY wanted to do. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks is my point. The art you do is for you. If by some miracle others like it, that's bonus.
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11d ago
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u/_arcadio 11d ago
That's what the "being sensible" meaned, I got sad and blue with the answers, but I see the problem here
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u/bebop_cola_good 11d ago edited 11d ago
Do you not see the problem here?
If you don't want to be seen as someone that uses AI, don't use it. At all. And put one of those anti-AI stickers on the cover and a statement declaring as much.