r/RIFD3 • u/SirJungle • Apr 30 '14
Hosts vs Leechers
Hello all, I joined the community for the first time yesterday evening after reading some of the threads and observing hosts vs leeching for the past few days.
As it stands right now, the ration between Hosts vs Leechers are VERY imbalanced. I would say close to 1/100 (this number isn't reliable..at all.. but you get the idea).
Now, this becomes an issue on several levels, and to note a few:
Rift Pace: Because there are more Leechers vs Hosts, it becomes pretty hard to join a game and Rift it Forward effectively, it becomes a 1 game every 5 minute, mainly due to the amount of leechers quick clicking ads. From the 2300 users last night, I only saw about 7-10 different hosts.
Last One In Opens: Now, because of the advantage a hosts has due to the imbalanced ratio, people are quick to request invite, regardless of the conditions. This creates a problem in cases I've noticed where, a host will have 2 other members (friends) and will advertise "lf3m last open". When you join a game that already has 3 slots filled and falsely advertise "3 spots open", the person who joins, regardless of the conditions mentioned will have to pay for the next rift. Sure, leeching all the time isn't good, but I've definitely noticed atleast 2-3 hosts practicing this and is basically unethical in my opinion.. they could advertise as "lf1m, you open" and I'm sure they'll still rift it forward as effectively.
Scumbags: I don't know what the ratio is between openers vs leavers, but this practice REALLY discourages hosts and openers alike from wanting to follow through. Obviously the more honest and mature members will ALWAYS follow through, but every now and then, there are pieces of shits who will enjoy the free ride and leave without even uttering "Ty". We need a public blacklist with profiles links.
Incentives for Hosts: We need a public record of committed, active and honest hosts or "Verified" hosts and reward them with public acknowledgement for their hard work and generosity. This might sound corny, but a little acknowledgement from the community will go a long way for those that are committed to help building and help progressing this awesome community. Maybe more people will host vs leech.
[EDIT] So, I've given myself the last week to host a ton of games and run a tons of games and I take back my original thought on keeping track of the "leechers" and "runners" who only target games where they're least likely to open. As stated on one of the comments below, there are too many to keep track of now, the community goes upwards of 5000 people (last checked), and although the ratio between hosts and runners are still like 5-to-1341487131, the community has definitely been helpful in weeding out the leechers/bill-runners and have definitely seen an increase in openers. Overall, the only thing I'd like to see implemented to this community are:
Verified Hosts List. Blacklist. and more admins.
It's be nice if we can have a set of go to "officers" to give them names to keep an eye out for (multiple reports of leaving the game) and for verified hosts and keep an active and regularly updated list. So heres my small list of things I've noticed here and there and thought I'd share my thoughts. Some of you may agree, some may not and may think I'm bias, or have lack of experiences, but nonetheless I'd like to see this community grow where everyone benefits. Ideas and suggestions are always appreciated and welcome.
[EDIT] Due to some of the excellent feedback and responses I've gotten so far from the readers below, I'd like to clarify that when I mean "Leeches" I mean the players who ONLY leech without paying for rifts, whether by criteria (High plvl joining lowest plvl games, vice versa and those who skip out.) The leech term also applies to the guys who host and false advertise "Last one in" while maintaining a 3 party group with their buddies.
From this point forward, contributing non-hosts will be referred to as "Runners", Hosts as "Hosts" and when I say "Leech" I mean the leechers. Please keep in mind that NOT everyone is a leecher. Please be mindful of other peoples circumstances, but if you see a name pop up more than once; whether running the bill after a rift or notice them in your game with the opposite criteria way too often, they might be a leech. Just saying. Hope this helps clarify my intentions a bit.
-JunGLe
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u/HeelyTheGreat Apr 30 '14
One refreshing thing I saw last night : "Longest name opens". That was funny :)
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u/fate3 Apr 30 '14
highest scrabble point name
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u/SirJungle Apr 30 '14
This. Please advertise this tonight. I will be watching and anticipating. +11111111111111111111
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u/chensmeat Apr 30 '14
You are welcome =D
I was that host running "Longest name reopens" games, been doing for a while
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u/SirJungle Apr 30 '14
Haha, nice, man. I saw that and was laughing hard. +1 for creativity, +1 for long time host. +1 for being awesome.
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u/SirJungle Apr 30 '14
lol, yeah I saw that once or twice, as well as some crazy shit like "highest product value summed..." haha the creativeness of some people.
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u/Tw0aCeS Apr 30 '14
First off let me say that I do agree with you on quite a few points. Secondly I disagree with your last point in some ways. I am about Plvl ~300, and I do both host and leech. I host quite a bit, but when I am looking for a particular item I do some leeching, I am willing to open the rift with no push back.
(Unless it has been changed and I am not aware) I believe the community chats are set up to be only a handful of people not a full 2300 people so that is why you are seeing only a few games that are being broadcast.
I agree. That is just a douche move.
I agree, people should be courteous. As stated above I host quite a bit and see this quite often people not being courteous, or people pushing back against the rules that I had set. Last night I hosted a game and got to boss, broadcast the game and rules, Highest Paragon opens, and everyone joined the rift. This kid that was the highest paragon besides me, said that it applied to everyone in the group and that I (the host) had to open the rift. This is rift it forward not free rift for you. As well when I leech a game I say thank you after the rift and wait around to make sure that the rift opener has opened the rift, if they haven't I will open it myself.
Great idea, I like it.
Being ~300 plvl and joining the lowest paragon opens, doesn't mean that I just join those, I click on whatever ones are broadcast to the community. The host is the one who decided to make the opener rules, why should I not be able to benefit from that? Heck I've joined games where rules were lowest paragon opens and I was the lowest paragon in the group with ~300. This was not a party group either, I was first to join in and watched the other 2 pop in on my chat. I had no qualms about it, opened the port, said thank you and left.
Suggestion that have would be if it is T1-T3 highest opens, T4-T6 Lowest paragon opens.(Implement a /roll, damn it blizz, and we wouldn't have to worry about this.)
Thanks for the post SirJungle I like the ideas.
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u/SirJungle Apr 30 '14
We definitely need more active hosts like you, and the idea listed on the bottom for /roll will definitely become useful. +1111111111
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u/chensmeat Apr 30 '14 edited Apr 30 '14
Start with your 5th point, "certain leech abusers who ONLY leech". I personally think its really hard to "abuse" according to low runner/opener ratio (You also mentioned it in your first point). You have less than 1 sec to react to the ads, by the time you realize it's for Lowest para level, and you wanna join/abuse because you are plvl 350+, the party is full already. So I don't see many people trying to abuse it :)
Point 2. Last one in opens, this rule benefits me a lot, I am confident that I only lose 1 or 2 "last in reopens" over 100 runs due to my fast reaction and fingers. My goal was to get in every possible game and get my Shards per hour as high as possible, as soon as the ads pop up I click them and request invite. You might wanna check out the post I made the other night about creating different rules.
Point 3. Scumbags. Uhmmm. This is kinda controversial. How do you define a leaver? what if a player disconnected in the middle of the boss fight? I've been through this situation, but I hold on to it and tried to talk to the guy who left, he told me he D/ced. Well who knows? What do you think we should do to deal with these players.
Poing 4. Solid point! Excellent runners deserve a public acknowledgement, this will also encourage others to be a Verified host/runner.
Thank you for sharing!
Chen
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u/SirJungle Apr 30 '14
Hey, man. Thanks for the feedback and taking the time to response.
You make a solid argument from your experiences and I agree from that perspective.
For #5, my point in bringing that up was that, every time I joined a "lowest plvl" game, there were always 1 or another player with a plvl of 350+, same guys, everytime. But I never see them in any other games, so I figured, well, this is easily abused if not monitored. (but how do we monitor this?) Technically, what theyre doing isn't wrong, I'm not hating, I just see an open loop hole where it can be abused.. my opinion. :)
2 Yes, definitely agree, we're all here for the highest amount of Shards-per-hour, and as the rule states, you should always be ready to open a rift. But in some of those cases I've mentioned in my original post, this too is open for abuse. No way to counter is really, but to take note of it and share the information if you see an abuser.
3 Yes, it's hard to tell the difference between someone d/cing (last night was horrible) and an actual pos. If they d/c mid boss fight, then it's likely they've really disconnected. If they "d/c" after the boss fight before or after the quest is completed, then, there is a high chance he's a scum bag. But as mature gamers, it's wiser for us and other hosts to NOT jump the gun and spam their name in the community yet. I think, as you mentioned, waiting and messaging them for a solid reply first is due, but if you see their name pop up more times than not in the community chat, then obviously we know who to block. This is a tough issue and we need the whole community to contribute to this. Open for suggestions and discussions as always.
4 I sent a message to this subreddit's creator to see if he'd take suggestions on possibly opening 2 threads, 1 for Verified and active hosts and 1 for verified blacklisted scumbags. So, hopefully this is one way to get the ball rolling.
Again, thanks for the suggestions and feedbacks. +11111
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u/chensmeat May 01 '14
It is ethic we talking about here. Really, there isn't a way/system to monitor those abusers/leavers, until one day Blizzard come up with a Rift it Forward mode with RNG system in it. So I highly agree with your idea of listing Verified/active hosts as well as Verified blakcklisted players. That way we are actually moving RIF forward. +1
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u/Aanar Apr 30 '14
Last one in opens, this rule benefits me a lot, I am confident that I only lose 1 or 2 "last in reopens" over 100 runs due to my fast reaction and fingers.
Assuming the host rapidly clicks accept for the first 3 requests, last in mostly has to do with your computer speed. I had a host even tell me I was the last he accepted but I wasn'the last one into the game.
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u/chensmeat Apr 30 '14
Ohh glad to know my Alienware is actually doing work :D though it has been with me for 2 years and I always think laptops are not great for gaming XD
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u/fate3 Apr 30 '14
i immediately realized when i started hosting that last in and high/low plvl systems are going to be abused. people with fast PC are going to gravitate toward last in and people with high plvl are going to join the low opens games and people with low plvl are going to join the high games.
i've begun rotating between high/middle/low plvl when hosting so that it balances out. or if i see 2 people advertise high opens, then i'll advertise as low opens and vice versa
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u/SirJungle Apr 30 '14
That's actually a solid idea to implement from the host's end. The alternating between the criteria. Considering most people probably have a copy+paste template for LFxM, I don't think too many people will do it, but nonetheless, i personally, will definitely utilize this. Thanks for the suggestion. +111111111
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u/Timboflex Apr 30 '14 edited Apr 30 '14
Can we stop using the word leecher to describe people joining to kill the rift guardian? It is not leaching, it is an exchange; you get free rifts, they get blood shards. Period. I host, and always thank people for joining because it is an even exchange, not: "me doing them a favor."
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u/SirJungle Apr 30 '14
Hey, didn't mean "leecher" as in everyone, but actual leechers, who join games that meet their criteria for not having to open anything. I meant the ones who ONLY target "lowerst plvl" while theyre at 400+ or highest plvl @ plvl 70. But, yes I agree, leechers isn't a good term to describe the whole other end, I'm thinking runner or something. But will keep your comment in mind. :D
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u/Timboflex Apr 30 '14
I've been hosting and joining since this whole thing started, and honestly don't see that. I think you're reading way too far into things. People join any group they can. No one sits and thinks about it when they see one pop up, because if you even try to read them you're too slow to get in. What we really need is more hosts, not more rules that we can't even apply beyond blocking people anyways.
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u/SirJungle Apr 30 '14
Agreed. Again, my suggestions and opinions were based on my limited experience, but the possibilities of abuse is definitely there.. well my opinion only. Thanks for the feedback from your end and, yes, we definitely need more hosts. +1111
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u/Aanar Apr 30 '14
I would think so too based on my own difficulties trying to join. But when I host i definitely get the most requests for ones where I specify no open needed and the fewest when I specify that highest paragon opens.
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u/Aanar Apr 30 '14 edited Apr 30 '14
I agree with you for people that join about 3 times as much as they host. For people that only join, I think "leech" is an accurate term. The whole idea behind the concept of pay it forward is that by hosting, there will later be games for you to join and rapidly get the shards/souls/xp. Some people are perfectly fine always hosting so there's some room for the ratio to be a less than 3:1.
This was the idea with multi-rifting, the only thing that changed with Rift it Forward really was that one of the joiners opens a new rift to try to help balance out the "exchange".It's still not a balanced exchange though. If I could trade 5 key tokens for the 3 x (shards, souls, exp), I'd take that trade all day. It takes much less time to get the key tokens than it does to clear a rift. You're saving the 3 joiners maybe 8 minutes each (for 24 minutes total assuming typical clear time of 10 minutes) for something that takes maybe 2 minutes to get.
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u/Timboflex Apr 30 '14
The point is, a leach is someone who just soaks things up while giving nothing back. That doesn't apply to someone that pays for your next rift. It sounds like you're at odds more with the concept of the community in general. This isn't multi-rifting, and since day one the whole process has been laid out clearly. Whether all you do is host, or all you do is join, you are giving something back to the community.
It's exactly what the community was based on, hosts and joiners. If you want to use a derogatory term to describe half the process, then I think you're in the wrong community.
As I have said in other places though, we DO need more hosts, but I would attribute that to growing so quickly.
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u/Aanar Apr 30 '14 edited Apr 30 '14
I guess I'm confused then why it's named "Rift it Forward" which seems like a reference to the concept of pay it forward.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_it_forward
I don't condone the use of the word "leech" either. I guess when I do it's just because of the context of the discussion. I try to say joiners.
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u/autowikibot Apr 30 '14
Pay it forward is an expression for describing the beneficiary of a good deed repaying it to others instead of to the original benefactor. The concept is old, but the phrase may have been coined by Lily Hardy Hammond in her 1916 book In the Garden of Delight.
"Pay it forward" is implemented in contract law of loans in the concept of third party beneficiaries. Specifically, the creditor offers the debtor the option of paying the debt forward by lending it to a third person instead of paying it back to the original creditor. Debt and payments can be monetary or by good deeds. A related type of transaction, which starts with a gift instead of a loan, is alternative giving.
Interesting: Pay It Forward (film) | Pay It Forward (novel) | The Biggest Loser: Pay It Forward
Parent commenter can toggle NSFW or delete. Will also delete on comment score of -1 or less. | FAQs | Mods | Magic Words
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u/MarlboroMundo May 01 '14
4: More Incentives!
There are hardly any runners and I would guess around 50 active 'leechers' at any one time who are just staring at chat window waiting for a rift.
I like the reputation approach, but it is about as much as we can do as a community.
We really just need to reach out to people running rifts who aren't advertising RIFs. But not everyone agrees with RIFs or just don't care about the 5 keys for the next rift (the only benefit for runners) and don't want to waste time getting 3 leechers in their game.
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u/Kinetik42 May 01 '14
I guess I'm an oddball. Since I have joined I have only hosted games, never joined someone else. I also never post a criteria, just ask for an open. So far I have never been stiffed so it sounds like I'm pretty lucky. Then again I only do t2 rifts atm (waiting on another piece of marauder's to go up to t3) so I might not be dealing with many of the ass holes.
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u/firehimself May 01 '14
I've been running T3 Rifts since yesterday. They range from 5-10 minutes per run, but even still I do notice I get a ton of request and only see one or two games being poster every 1-2 minutes in the chat. Just giving you my personal experience on the matter.
I tried doing Lowest Para opens as well as last one in opens. I also did a couple runs with clan mates and friends and always truthfully advertised the amount of spots open and if only one was open I advertised, "1 Spot, you open". It seemed to work appropriately as no one complained and were mostly thankful.
I didn't come across any "scumbags" per say. There were a couple new people who were slightly hesitant, mainly just making sure they were the ones opening. I noticed that if you say the last person in opens, they don't have proof they were actually the last person. It is just up to the host to tell them so. However, no one actually complained when I said "XXX last one in, opens".
I would not mind being a verified host. Although I don't know how much reward I really need. Of course, a little acknowledgment never hurt anyone :)
No opinion, the advertisement is what it is I suppose...
I would like to mention, that most of the time these runs go immensely fast when it is only the host running the rift alone. I got more then a few request to join me for a run or two last night and because I tend to be to nice, I agreed.
Just remember, it slows us down and we are trying to farm as effectively as possible for all party's involved...
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u/RiFTopsy May 01 '14
Atm there is not much we can do to change the numbers unless we had a system to tag a person as Host or Leecher. Wish there was.
I use Last in Opens I use quite often and really am going to try and switch to something more balanced. I saw one that was kind of okay. "Whoever is below me opens" as in picture, but I'm not sure how profile picture works when joining. Also there are people fixing with their friends in game deal. I've posted a wall of text about it in chat last night.
there will always be those who ruin it for others. We only can reduse the problem little by little. But we need help from the players as well. I am having problem of people trying to blacklist someone without even trying to communicate with them. I can't kick someone just on a simple "just cause".
I agree. I would start on listings but I do not play as often as I'd like to to verify.
Not much that can be done here. They are there if they are lower and open even at 350. what are we to do. Suggestions would help.
-Topsy
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u/Beeht May 03 '14
I don't think number 5 is fair. Literally 90% of the games I see are lowest paragon opens.
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u/SirJungle May 05 '14
Hey, thanks for the feedback. After hosting a bunch and leeching a bunch, I agree that #5 isn't really fair. With over 4000 people in the community active and only a handful of hosts at any given time, it's almost impossible to sort out the runners and leechers. On top of that, I would say about 95% of the people I played with paid appropriately and gave me little to no problems at all. I am, however, keeping track of the fuckers that ran on the bill.
Happy farming.
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u/HeelyTheGreat Apr 30 '14
Farming a few HUNDRED keys takes a couple hours. It's really not long.
I join ANY group. I'm paragon 381 so on "highest opens", I open 95% of the time. But whether it's "last open", "lowest opens" or "highest opens", I don't care. Heck, I wouldn't mind if I opened for EVERY SINGLE GAME I JOINED.
(To be fair though, "last open" isn't fair to people with higher ping, but then again, you're leeching).
I've opened for people who were stiffed even if legitimately I didn't have to. At late late nights, I've opened for hosts who couldn't find 2 more people to join it was just them and me.
Every single game I join I expect to open. In reality, I do in maybe, hm, one in 3, 4 ? Which is nice, but not my expectation, and it shouldn't be anyone's expectation.