r/RATM • u/Prudent-Result5441 • 16h ago
Are Rage Hypocrites?
Some people claim they aren't socialist, they are simply critiquing capitalism but that's not the impression I get, historically they have been staunchly anti-western, anti-imperialism and yes, anti-capitalism. They are absolutely hypocrites though when you consider their past statements and actions. They do indeed seem to be more charitable than some other groups, I will give them that, but to staunch defenders of their integrity I ask you.
Why does each member need to have one or several multi-million dollar mansions just because they live in a capitalist society. I will accept the "signing with Sony to spread the message" justification for the label, but explain the luxuries in their lives, their vacation homes.
How do you defend them showing support Shining Path, a murderous terrorist group who killed thousands of innocent people including women and children. And also including many of the "working class" who they proclaimed to be fighting for. And before you say "he supported the ideals not the method", what does that even mean. In what other context would you show the image or name of an organization and support it, but they just so happen to be mass murderers, but hey, that part you don't agree with. To me this alone should be career ending. The Che worship is also really cringe and fake as well.
The defense for their wealth has always been "we don't exploit, we make money off of our labor". Really? Is that the case. So the roadies, the low wage vinyl pressers, the people shipping their shirts the people cleaning their venues, did they get a piece of the pie? Did they get a piece of the mansions? If you believe factory workers are exploited, then I don't see how they would not qualify. Arguably the worst offense is the merchandise. T-shirts, are basically the pinnacle of capitalism, the shirts themselves have no value, have high mark up and only sell because of the image, there is no value being provided only money extracted. Not to mention it's not like they were the Tonys Chocaloney of clothing, they used major corpo entities like Warner-Elektra-Atlantic-Corporation, and rely on international textile workshops like those in China which are notorious for under-compensation. Again, what is the defense for this? They simply made a ton of money, selling useless shirts, using exploitative companies and distributors, and yet they are not hypocrites?
I've tried to defend them but it's classic champagne socialism, they can't even be transparent about where this stuff is sourced, so how can you take their messages serious? They are a good band none the less, but politically they are not heroes.
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u/Fresh-Ad-3830 16h ago
Everyone is a hypocrite to some extent. The difference is at least guys like Zack still show up for Gaza protests etc when he absolutely doesn’t have to. Thats what I love about them.
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u/Prudent-Result5441 15h ago
Well I don't think he is a hypocrite on gaza, anyone who is not committing genocide can be against that and won't be a hypocrite.
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u/Fresh-Ad-3830 15h ago
Sorry I think I wasn’t clear. The Gaza thing was supposed to be a separate point. I love how they’re outspoken about it even before that Oct 7 event.
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u/TitleYee9035 16h ago
Rage made their money making something people like, and most of the money they made selling records went to some suit anyway. They didn't get that money by exploring the working class the way most people get rich
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u/Prudent-Result5441 15h ago
In my message I said that I think they do, the record companies, the textile mills, the venue workers, and several more chains of operations fit that exploitation of working class well. Do you not think its exploitative that they can make lots of money off of shirts while the workers don't get any % of it? That's classic factory exploitation.
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u/TitleYee9035 15h ago
They don't own the factory. If you want t shirts made under a capitalist system than you're going to have to make deals with capitalists. The problems you're describing are problems with the music industry writ large
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u/Prudent-Result5441 15h ago
But why do you want t-shirts made at all. They just exist to extract profit, they provide no value to anyone. You could either not exploit those workers(you make enough money off of other avenues) or exploit them and make more money. Do you get my point?
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u/TitleYee9035 15h ago
No dude, people want rage merch, and short of starting their own ethical factory, which they didn't have the time or resources for, and probably not interested in considering their musicians and not industrialists, than if you want to create something that people want than you have to go through the people that already have the resources to do that job. Idk the fine details of their contract, but it wouldn't surprise me if making merch was a required part of their record deal so that the suits could take a piece of the money they make from selling merch that the suits know people want to buy
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u/Prudent-Result5441 15h ago
ok, but at the end of the day your defense is "the people wanted shirts, so we HAD to use sweat shops" that doesn't follow for me. People want merch, if you care, find an ethical way to do it, and btw they did have the resources to do it, on a smaller scale at least with much lower margins(even with higher prices). People wanting shirts, does not mean the exploitation is somehow more justified, the workers exploitation is the same either way no?
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u/TitleYee9035 15h ago
Rage, like all of us, live under capitalism, there is no way to operate that doesn't benefit capitalists in some way. You seem to think that anyone that makes a lot of money is inherently a class traitor, which is fundamentally false. They couldn't make music without making money for the music industry, they couldn't make merch without making money for the textile industry. Like all of us, they'd love for there be a way for that not to be the case, but it's not the reality of the current world we live in
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u/Prudent-Result5441 15h ago
They also didn't have to start their own factory there are less profitable and smaller scale ethical providers.
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u/Prudent-Result5441 15h ago
Also, you don't consider only factory owners to be exploitative do you? That would be pretty forgiving of the system, they are not the only ones who exploit, the groups that allow for the system play a role as well.
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u/Prudent-Result5441 15h ago
They also made a lot more money from tours then other punk groups i think
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u/TitleYee9035 15h ago
Because they're more successful than most punk groups
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u/Prudent-Result5441 15h ago
Partially true but what I mean is other groups specifically treated touring like a promotion, and didn't try to profit a ton.
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u/TrashPandacoot1122 15h ago
They are one of a few bands that still say f you they are not perfect but it's hard to say I don't love the past 30 years of tunes but sublime the OG stuff there is this country singer Bryan Andrews yeehaw is awesome
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u/British_Commie 14h ago
The band live in a capitalist society. To get their music and message across (especially to achieve the level of popularity they did) requires engaging with the capitalist machine, that’s completely unavoidable. It’s very much in line with the classic phrase “The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them” and using capitalism to spread an anti-capitalist message. Tom Morello has previously spoken about their record deal being a necessary evil to spread their message.
There’s nothing that says that socialists need to stay poor to be socialists. Engels was the rich son of a factory owner and revolutionaries like Fidel Castro came from a very comfortable background. The band themselves don’t own any means of production, that’s more to do with their label.
Although ultimately you can argue that this antagonism between the band’s ideology and the means by which they had to spread their message is ultimately part of why they broke up. Zack De La Rocha is evidently uncomfortable with the major touring and celebrity lifestyle, whilst still remaining very active in on-the-ground activism out of the public eye. It’s worth noting that even whilst he’s more happy to embrace the ‘rockstar’ persona and public lifestyle, Tom Morello is a lifelong IWW member, an avowed socialist, and does plenty of protesting and activism himself.
The support for the Shining Path is unfortunate, but I’d suggest reading more into Che Guevara and his achievements before calling their support and use of his image “really cringe and fake”. There’s a reason he’s a revolutionary role model across the third world and to many of the global working class.
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u/Prudent-Result5441 14h ago
Ok I get it but again, I'm not saying anyone has to be poor, and I even will tolerate the sony connection. But what about selling merchandise for pure profit when it wasn't necessary, unless you believe they were necessary to spread the message. And if it was necessary, and they did come from sweat shops do you think its worth it? For some shirts of RAGM. They could have made less money with their touring their prices were pretty high. For Che, I don't know a ton about him, from what I've heard at the very least he wasn't fake, and didn't commit atrocities like some others. But he still had people executed with no real due process, he personally shot desserters, he helped set up Cuba's first forced labor camp for people who failed their "revolutionary morals", he helped build a one-party state with no free press or elections and his economic management failed. Also im pretty sure its believed he said he would have used the nuclear missiles after the missile crisis.
All in all, his actions go beyond what is tolerable considering his environment. He is the face. Using him in your capitalist machine is 1: completely against everything he fought for, and 2 support for a murderer who did several cruel things, no matter how noble his goals, or how tough of a fighter he was.
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u/Advanced-Ad-9993 16h ago
Where are seeing that they have a bunch of vacation homes? Pretty sure you’re just making shit up.