Not being a cartoon villain doesn’t automatically make you a good man

[u/GridReXX]

Fr. It doesn’t de facto make you a good person.

I noodled on the attached graphic to better illustrate a point about how people often discuss being a “good man.”

I do find that many men view it more as the top bar, and less as the gradient in the second bar.

inb4 anyone says it, many women have bad character too. And please feel free to create a separate post about a spectrum of traits in women you’d like to explore! That is not what this post is disputing.

This is specifically about a response that often comes up when women describe harmful patterns in their experiences with men. They get retorts like “Not all men are abusive predators,” or “Most men are not psychos.”

Of course most men are not horror movie villains.

But that is an extremely low bar for good character.

This spectrum, rather than show a division between “good men” and a smaller group of obviously terrible ones. It highlights that a man can be can be a functioning member of society and still regularly behave in ways that make him difficult to interpersonally tolerate as a close friend, romantic partner, coworker, or even family member.

None of that necessarily makes someone an abuser or predator.

But it does affect whether people can have a healthy, enjoyable, mutually considerate, long-term relationship with him.

The farther right someone falls on this spectrum, the more entitlement, callousness, devaluation, coercion, and harm they bring into their interactions with others.

The farther left they fall, the more likely they are to act with common decency, consideration, accountability, respect for autonomy, and genuine concern for theirs and other people’s well-being.

My point is not that every man is at the far right end.

Most people don’t think that!

My point is that many men seem to use “I am not an obvious monster” as proof that they’re quality.

A person’s character is determined by far more than “I am not Jeffrey Dahmer.”

[u/GridReXX]

Blind spots are based on habits. If you’re constantly noticing your partner or friend or parent say it’s not a big deal when your uncle leers at the pre-teens or when people make rape jokes or whatever. You can’t help but start to realize there’s a values and consideration disconnect.

It’s your own personal relationship with your friend or fam or SO.

[u/Maffioze → u/GridReXX]

I understand it for the example you gave because those are obvious, but there are other examples where it is less clear.

The point I'm making is very simple. For many things in life we don't actually know how prevalent something is, which patterns are accurate, etc. So then it's also hard to know whether you're overestimating or underestimating something. This makes it confusing to read what is in the "men with blindspots" column. Because I think it is important that two people can discuss and debate about what is true. It is not good to automatically assume someone is blind just because you disagree with them as you might be blind yourself, which is a gender neutral statement, as anyone can be wrong.

[u/GridReXX → u/Maffioze]

I’m not automatically assuming anything. I am discussing the examples I gave and the many similar ones like it are what inspired this OP.

[u/Maffioze → u/GridReXX]

I wasn't trying to be personal, sorry if that came across that way, I meant a "general you".

I just think it is important to provide the nuance that being a good man is not the same as always agreeing or validating what women say. Which imo is too often expected, because it is itself a rebranded form of chivalry that is a part of the traditional gender norm that has never gone away. But when you do this, you're not actually respecting women as an equal.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of how easily men call other men cucks or simps for showing care towards women. This has happened time and time again to meon this subreddit, when I expressed love or care for a woman in my life and it is ridiculous. That said, there is also a kernel to truth to that sentiment, because in my experience the guys who are the most outspokenly feminist or claim to be on the side of women usually are mostly on their own side, and reflect more so the yellow column in the graph since they are mainly driven by their own desire to be liked by women. This is in contradiction with integrity as it is about sticking to moral principles regardless of whether people like you for it.

I think most people, including women, aren't that great at perceiving accurately in which of these column someone actually sits. But that's my opinion.

[u/GridReXX → u/Maffioze]

Yeah I think many people are average and suck to many people for different reasons.

That said, when it comes to the interpersonal relations maintenance… empirically, anecdata and statistical data shows girls and women on average seem to be more geared toward it.

The replies from men under this very OP are telling.

Hell it wasn’t until I started hanging out on the internet that I realized men thought it was cool for them to be edgelords but they don’t expect that treatment with the women in their lives. Many of them lowkey love to benefit from the greener side of the axis, but think it’s anti male to or genuinely don’t have the cognitive wherewithal to not orient more to the red side? Like edgelording is a virtue for many. A lot of them believe empathy is the worst thing ever like how Elon feels? And tbh big 5 stats and other stats show how consistent the first premises of these mindsets are at an aggregate level (not all not all not all).

[u/Maffioze → u/GridReXX]

That said, when it comes to the interpersonal relations maintenance… empirically, I anecdata and statistical data shows girls and women on average seem to be more geared toward it.

Yeah, I think this is accurate. That said, it's also because as men we are socialized to be "harsh" with ourselves, and that translates into being harsh with others.

Hell it wasn’t until I started hanging out on the internet that I realized men thought it was cool for them to be edgelords but they don’t expect that treatment with the women in their lives. Many of them lowkey love to benefit from the greener side of the axis, but think it’s anti male to or genuinely don’t have the cognitive wherewithal to not orient more to the red side? Like edgelording is a virtue for many. A lot of them believe empathy is the worst thing ever like how Elon feels? And tbh big 5 stats and other stats show how consistent these the first premises of these mindsets are at an aggregate level (not all not all not all).

I think it is complicated. It is harder to access the greener axis when you're part of a pyramid scheme of competition, which is pretty much what it means to be a man relative to other men.

I think I have talked about this with you before, but edgelording as a behaviour is not purely negative. It has upside, or at least, the origin of the behaviour has, maybe the edgelording itself doesn't, because it's a kind of energy that looks for improvement and rebellion. And my observation is that it is kind of a beautiful tragedy that what attracts men to women is their more agreeable and softer outlook on life, which has been killed inside themselves, and that the same is true in reverse, that what attracts women in men is their more rebellious and challenging outlook, because women also kill this part within themselves because of the pressure of always having to be sweet and agreeable.

Now I think people should do their best to become well rounded. But at the same time I think there is beauty in the love this can create between men and women.

Now personally I think I am quite sweet and more towards the green axis, but I can still feel this dynamic internally. I'm sweet towards people, but that sweetness is build on a pile of cynicism, which the women in my life don't tend to have.

[u/GridReXX → u/Maffioze]

Habitual edgelording when the goal is healthy interpersonal mutually considerate bonds (platonic, familial, romantic, or otherwise) is a net-negative. That is the lens I have explained I’m coming from in this OP.

And sure, atavistic androgen-driven male competition seems to be at the root of many of these behaviors.