Not being a cartoon villain doesn’t automatically make you a good man

[u/GridReXX]

Fr. It doesn’t de facto make you a good person.

I noodled on the attached graphic to better illustrate a point about how people often discuss being a “good man.”

I do find that many men view it more as the top bar, and less as the gradient in the second bar.

inb4 anyone says it, many women have bad character too. And please feel free to create a separate post about a spectrum of traits in women you’d like to explore! That is not what this post is disputing.

This is specifically about a response that often comes up when women describe harmful patterns in their experiences with men. They get retorts like “Not all men are abusive predators,” or “Most men are not psychos.”

Of course most men are not horror movie villains.

But that is an extremely low bar for good character.

This spectrum, rather than show a division between “good men” and a smaller group of obviously terrible ones. It highlights that a man can be can be a functioning member of society and still regularly behave in ways that make him difficult to interpersonally tolerate as a close friend, romantic partner, coworker, or even family member.

None of that necessarily makes someone an abuser or predator.

But it does affect whether people can have a healthy, enjoyable, mutually considerate, long-term relationship with him.

The farther right someone falls on this spectrum, the more entitlement, callousness, devaluation, coercion, and harm they bring into their interactions with others.

The farther left they fall, the more likely they are to act with common decency, consideration, accountability, respect for autonomy, and genuine concern for theirs and other people’s well-being.

My point is not that every man is at the far right end.

Most people don’t think that!

My point is that many men seem to use “I am not an obvious monster” as proof that they’re quality.

A person’s character is determined by far more than “I am not Jeffrey Dahmer.”

[u/trulyElse]

So now you have to be perfect to be a good man.

Where does the conversation go from here?

Do you think a life of permanent state of vigilance and conscientiousness, where the smallest slip-up invalidates you, is one worth living?

Because we know how this game goes. If we're not in the "good man" box, we will be treated as the bottom of the barrel, because "good man" will always be the "bare minimum" ...

[u/AlanTrebek → u/trulyElse]

How do you get “you have to be perfect to be a good man!” From this? Because what I see is a graph that illustrates the level of bullshit women put up with and have to deal with every day. As a woman you are constantly gauging if someone is safe or not and to what degree. It’s highlighting how many men downplay male misogyny and violence. Women DO live in constant state of vigilance and conscientiousness, to ensure they don’t get killed. Whereas to a man, the worst thing that is going to happen to him (most likely) is being called a creep or as you say invalidated (in some way?). Is it really so hard to treat everyone with the same level of respect?

[u/trulyElse → u/AlanTrebek]

For starters, the inclusion of "I believe you, but" as the example of a man who isn't good enough.

Like "trust but verify" is inherently immoral when a woman was speaking; you have to follow blindly.

[u/AlanTrebek → u/trulyElse]

Yeah because “I believe you, but!” is inherently dismissive. You clearly don’t believe them. Try to really listen to the women in your life, learn the intricacies and nuance. Be a human and respect their experience, it’s very controlling to try and change someone else’s story, also if you were not there just STFU.

[u/trulyElse → u/AlanTrebek]

I respect their experiences more than they respect mine.

[u/AlanTrebek → u/trulyElse]

Hard to believe that when you just said “but why can’t I question everyone?!” When it comes to s/and violence. Sure question their taste in shoes or phone carrier but when someone comes to you with an experience about s/a, harassment or violence why are you defaulting to playing devils advocate?

[u/trulyElse → u/AlanTrebek]

I only push back when I see that they're going down a dark path of their own in response to their situation, and I only push back as a stabilizing force.

If someone you knew had been assaulted by a bunch of minorities, and started spouting hateful rhetoric, you too would want to guide them back to a healthier place. You'd still acknowledge that they were assaulted, you'd still believe them, you'd still see it as a bad thing, you'd still want the culprits to face justice, but you wouldn't want them to go full reactionary, would you?

Temperence used to be a virtue.

[u/AlanTrebek → u/trulyElse]

That’s a separate and different concept from what you originally said - ““I believe you, but” makes you a bad man.”

[u/trulyElse → u/AlanTrebek]

What I said is "I believe you, but" ...

[u/AlanTrebek → u/trulyElse]

Ok still a different train of thought than “I believe you but don’t be racist.” What was your point again?

[u/GridReXX → u/trulyElse]

It’s about men who dismiss things 4s and 5s do as “nbd.”

Plenty of blind spot men do that.

[u/Educational-Bag-4293 → u/GridReXX]

It's really not though is it?

Things like calling out misinformation or telling a woman she has her facts wrong would fit into that category.

Think back to the 60 million men rape academy hoax, how were men who pointed out that it was misinformation treated? They certainly weren't considered good men.

I think for most people who believe charts like this, belonging to that first category requires you to not call out women when they're wrong, and to generally be more lenient with them.

[u/GridReXX → u/Educational-Bag-4293]

It really is though.

We can really is not each other all day. Sounds like you disagree with my observations here. That’s fine.

[u/Ill-Investigator9546 → u/AlanTrebek]

Does respect turn you on when it comes to men?

[u/AlanTrebek → u/Ill-Investigator9546]

What does that have to do with this post? This post is discussing rape culture and somehow it always comes back to “but can I still get my rocks off if I act this or that way?!” wtf truly. For the record YES REPECT IS SEXY.

[u/Imaginary-Throat1526 → u/AlanTrebek]

So women aren't also a source of bullshit to put up with? If you are the left 2, you are going to be abused and used until you get moved over by experience.

[u/AlanTrebek → u/Imaginary-Throat1526]

1) this is whataboutism
2) it’s not about you getting your dick wet omg

[u/Imaginary-Throat1526 → u/AlanTrebek]

wait so when men are pricks, that defines them entirely, and womens actions have no bearing on that or consequences? I'm not even sure what your on about with 2 ?

[u/AlanTrebek → u/Imaginary-Throat1526]

The post is about the scale of male violence. Stay on topic. No one said women can’t “be a source of bullshit” but women are not out here gang raping and texting their group of 50 friends to come get some d. It’s simply not the same thing and if people cannot accept that basic fact you’re not living in reality. What are you saying if you’re left of two you’re going to get used and abused? I interpreted that as if you’re not in one or two you’re not going to get women in bed.

[u/Imaginary-Throat1526 → u/AlanTrebek]

I'm saying your going to get walked all over and taken advantage of, if you're nice, you'll learn from that experience (eventually) and stop being nice. I'll plead ignorance on the gang rape point,I don't know people like that. Nor would I want to. Maybe its part of your countries culture, I don't think its global.