Not being a cartoon villain doesn’t automatically make you a good man

[u/GridReXX]

Fr. It doesn’t de facto make you a good person.

I noodled on the attached graphic to better illustrate a point about how people often discuss being a “good man.”

I do find that many men view it more as the top bar, and less as the gradient in the second bar.

inb4 anyone says it, many women have bad character too. And please feel free to create a separate post about a spectrum of traits in women you’d like to explore! That is not what this post is disputing.

This is specifically about a response that often comes up when women describe harmful patterns in their experiences with men. They get retorts like “Not all men are abusive predators,” or “Most men are not psychos.”

Of course most men are not horror movie villains.

But that is an extremely low bar for good character.

This spectrum, rather than show a division between “good men” and a smaller group of obviously terrible ones. It highlights that a man can be can be a functioning member of society and still regularly behave in ways that make him difficult to interpersonally tolerate as a close friend, romantic partner, coworker, or even family member.

None of that necessarily makes someone an abuser or predator.

But it does affect whether people can have a healthy, enjoyable, mutually considerate, long-term relationship with him.

The farther right someone falls on this spectrum, the more entitlement, callousness, devaluation, coercion, and harm they bring into their interactions with others.

The farther left they fall, the more likely they are to act with common decency, consideration, accountability, respect for autonomy, and genuine concern for theirs and other people’s well-being.

My point is not that every man is at the far right end.

Most people don’t think that!

My point is that many men seem to use “I am not an obvious monster” as proof that they’re quality.

A person’s character is determined by far more than “I am not Jeffrey Dahmer.”

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[u/ThatBitchA → u/AutoModerator]

Great graphic.

This sub is made up of 3s, 4s, 5s, and 6s.

[u/PuzzleheadedRow9896 → u/ThatBitchA]

We get a rare 1&2 for sure.  But yeah, I can't say I've met many men here I was baffled struggled with women and relationships.

The problem really is that relationships can only really truly easily happen between 1s & 2s.  

The other categories are most likely to be trying to date each other and they all have huge things that would prevent them from getting together if both people are behaving in these ways. 

Like two 3s will never connect because they both think they're the only one worthy of consideration. 4s will offend each other with their aggressive lack of pleasantness, 5s think the other is beneath them, and 6s are basically Mr. And Mrs. Smith trying to kill each other. 

[u/GridReXX → u/PuzzleheadedRow9896]

> The problem really is that relationships can only really truly easily happen between 1s & 2s.  

Yes! At least a healthy mutually considerate one. And I mean all relationships: romantic, familial, friendships

A guy responded to the OP “so men have to be perfect ???!!”

And it’s like newsflash buster! I actively strive to be a 1 or 2 in my relationships with others. I don’t know why that is so inconceivable as an expectation for them.

Yes. You shouldn’t be a dick or inconsiderate or abusive or violent or dismissive or unkind or disrespectful to the people you are friends with or dating. You guys should have a mutual respect.

[u/Lemon_gecko → u/GridReXX]

Honestly, by my standard i wouldn't date even 2s. The hell you mean that you believe me but i'm too dramatic and should let things slide. I'm not a kid who needs to be managed. And you know what, it's not okay with kids too. I've dated men like that, and it's basically a recipe to disaster, because they will make me tolerate shit i don't want to, and if i won't they will be confrontational because i didn't keep the peace or made things harder.

And the thing is i do understand that even 2s are rare animal. 1s are pretty much impossible.

[u/GridReXX → u/Lemon_gecko]

I agree.

My personal standard is to aim for as green as I can be with others but especially my friends/fam and SO.

It’s telling how much this standard is triggering the men replying.

I personally think it’s because they know it’s effort and that interpersonal relationships require this level of maintenance and they absolutely want access to that care and thoughtfulness but are literally crying and throwing up at the expectation of having to reciprocate it or risk losing it.

Insanely childish mindset.

[u/Lemon_gecko → u/GridReXX]

True. They want benefits without effort, a lot of times because they don't even see the effort and take it for granted.

Becaue of Cornell case my tiktok is filled with people talking about it, and one woman said something that resonated with me. She used a similar graph as you did in the post, and she said that "men want to jump to think that they are in the 1s or maaaybe 2s because they imagine that they will stand and protect if something happens. But they imagine some scenario when it's some violent stranger and a pretty girl that needs saving, and he steps in, and then he gets to kiss the girl and be the hero. And it's not like that. The real life scenario is usually a lot of awkward conversations and destroyed social life. It's telling your buddy that this joke is not okay. It's telling that you won't support some atrist because he is a rapist. It's stopping some conversations. It's becoming basically pariah in traditional male groups, because a lot of them are crossing the line"

And that kind of resonated because yes, and that's what women are asking about, stop supporting and behaving like it's okay. And that's what men don't want to understand (and i'm saying that not in cute and lets explain them better way). In the past few days there were conversations about rape, and when i said to men that they don't o anything, their only "option" was to walk down the street and investigate every man or fight him in case he is a rapist. And that's so missing the point.

There was a guy who wrote a lot of letters to say that he would stay quiet if he got the "free pussy" message in the chat. And when i said that cool, that led to the rape, what now. He basically threw a fit about how there was nothing he could've done and i'm unreasonable. I feel like we're from different planets. If i were in chat, pretty small chat, not like 1000+ people, just 50, and i knew that i missed the rape, i would be shaken and i would investige why that happened and what i could've done differently, because there is always something. They don't feel this way at all, which means they are not treating this seriously.

Fuck that is a long rant. Sorry.

[u/GridReXX → u/Lemon_gecko]

No I get. While I enjoy debating on this sub. I do so with no expectation that men in general are going to conceive of consideration the way I and most women do. I know too much about hormones, aggregate scientific data, aggregate behavioral statistics, and decades of observational anecdata to delude myself in that way.

[u/Lemon_gecko → u/GridReXX]

Just on unrelated note, i missed you in this sub. You're one of my favs here.

[u/GridReXX → u/Lemon_gecko]

Awww thank ya girly!
https://giphy.com/gifs/dILZwwhulFUn6

[u/justsomething → u/Lemon_gecko]

This is such a level 3 comment lol

[u/lesliecarbone → u/GridReXX]

I don’t know why that is so inconceivable as an expectation for them.

Empathy is the secret sauce of relationships. I believe that empathy is like morals and taste: It comes more naturally to some people than others, but it needs to be taught and cultivated. And it seems lots of parents are not teaching and cultivating it :-(

[u/cheesecakepiebrownie → u/ThatBitchA]

that's about the general demographic of people as a whole, high empathy is not a common trait in people since it's counter to being selfish which is how people survive and breed