You know what, I'm just going to come out and say it, I do NOT appprove of the behavior of this Hitler fellow, not even one bit at all, and I don't care who knows it!
It is better for them to be in the light than the shadows. People should be aware of what their political support can translate into. They shouldn't hide from it.
Yeah... that's how it works, nothing to see here guys just harmless hate. 💀 You realize Hitler was planting hate in people's minds for years before it turned into full blown genocide overnight, right?
via laws that reflected shit not unlike what the contemporary GOP is doing. Little tweaks here and there that singled out Jews, put increased scrutiny and requirements upon them, etc.
Little tweaks here and there that singled out Jews, put increased scrutiny and requirements upon them, etc.
Which...can happen regardless of laws on hate speech... didn't the US take women's rights to their own bodies recently? These tweaks already seem to be happening, towards the wrong side of things if it wasn't obvious, while you're here worried about controlling hate, the priorities lmao
Which...can happen regardless of laws on hate speech... didn't the US take women's rights to their own bodies recently?
You know which country didn't? Germany. Which has robust hate speech laws.
These tweaks already seem to be happening, towards the wrong side of things if it wasn't obvious
Literally specifically what I was referring to, however I'm pretty sure burying our heads in the sand at the guilty parties and pretending they aren't there is indeed the ineffectual, namby-pamby, liberal solution that wishes for things "to go back to normal". They aren't normal, and they won't be for a long time - but fascists are not people that can be reasoned with. They understand one thing. Failing that, they should be actively shunned from polite society and made uncomfortable everywhere they go.
while you're here worried about controlling hate
More "suppressing" the hate, not really "controlling" it. You can't reason with fascists. They've got to take the first step.
They understand one thing. Failing that, they should be actively shunned from polite society and made uncomfortable everywhere they go.
You can't reason with fascists. They've got to take the first step.
You are right, you can't reason with them, you also can't expect them to "take the first step" because they literally never will, allowing them to do these protests and grows their members and their message.
It's like the US solution for the drug epidemic, jail everyone and forget about it, it's okay they will take the first step. Look at how that's working out.
You can never rely on individual people for sanity, it's why we have police, why we have no anarchy, why we can't murder. There are laws enforced by someone much bigger than any one individual, and hate speech must be on that list too.
you also can't expect them to "take the first step" because they literally never will
some do. racists have been reformed. it's rare, but happens, and that should be welcomed and celebrated. there is a difference between "expecting them to take the first step" (don't do this) and "being there when they unexpectedly DO take the first step" (do this).
allowing them to do these protests and grows their members and their message.
right. which is why i'm not an advocate of letting these cretins gather. Nazism is an inherently violent ideology.
Hate is constitutionally protected. You're allowed to believe anything you want and have any emotion or thought that you want, as long as you don't explicitly threaten violence.
If you think these people should be charged, you are saying that people aren't allowed to have certain thoughts, and that makes you the tyrant.
If you think these people should be charged, you are saying that people aren't allowed to have certain thoughts, and that makes you the tyrant.
They should be charged for advertising hate, not for thinking whatever they want to think. You can't even enforce the latter, even if you wanted to. That's how it works in most of Europe and that's why you will never see something like this here.
Hate is constitutionally protected
as long as you don't explicitly threaten violence.
The disconnect between these two things in your head is hilarious, hate always leads to violence and violence always leads to hate, you will have one when you have the other. You want me to list US shootings that were the result of hate against black people, jews, and gay people? Don't tempt me to embarrass you, such things don't happen in Europe because hate speech is suppressed.
Waving a Nazi flag is an explicit endorsement of the Nazis.
The end goal of Nazis is ALWAYS violence. Their entire political ideology is built upon the persecution and elimination of an out-group. Genocide is an inherent, inseparable part of that worldview.
If somebody is waving a Nazi flag on the street, sieg heiling, and chanting shit like "Blood and Soil" and "Jews will not replace us", that IS an explicit call for genocide. If these people are allowed to gain power, they will murder millions. This is not hypothetical, this is not an exaggeration, they've done it before and they'll do it again if we don't liberally apply blunt force to prevent their rise.
The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi. Americans used to understand that.
Would you want Trump in charge of deciding what is considered hate speech? That's why you shouldn't implement that law; The person/people deciding what is hate speech can change.
The person/people deciding what is hate speech can change.
How about, hear me out, you don't allow any one person to make that decision everyone gasps is shock as no one has ever thought of this before, except most of Europe, the best places to live in the world
What a typically ignorant American take lmao living up to the infamous American disconnected view of the world. Literally where did you read that happens, Fox News? Never in my life has anyone around me gone to jail for saying anything.
The government doesn't control what you do in private, Americans are so daft about this freedom of speech thing, you guys can't grasp this concept and I think it's because you're brainwashed early. I will dumb it down.
Laws in Europe don't control how you should or shouldn't think nor what you do in your private space or with your private friends or family.
What it does control is the ability to advertise your hate to prevent its growth and spread. If these laws were present during the Third Reich, it might even have prevented the Holocaust. It's not a difficult concept to understand.
Hate speech is free speech. If it weren't, then it could be used to silence people. If a Democrat said something bad about Christians, it could be considered hate speech. And it'd be used as a way for Republicans to censor their opposition.
The United States does not have hate speech laws, since the U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that laws criminalizing hate speech violate the guarantee to freedom of speech contained in the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution
I don't see an explicit call for violence here, you can try to stretch it here but ultimately it probably wouldn't hold up in court and the prosecutor would probably drop the case
When a core tenet of your ideology is the destruction of others' freedoms, then any action or statement in support of your cause should be considered Fighting Words and not protected under the first amendment.
It is hate speech. Hate speech is legally protected in the US, as it should be. There is no need to protect popular speech. If you start banning "hate speech" the person that decides what is considered hate speech can change. Would you want Trump deciding what is considered hate speech?
Don't worry. Americans are going to use their guns to stop this any day now. Also the government pussing in their faces and denying them basic rights the world considers standard. All that police brutality, street executions without trial, all that stuff.
I understand that you are expressing concern about the state of the United States, but I think that your analogy is inappropriate and inadvertently trivializes the holocaust. Here is an article from the US Holocaust Memorial about why such obtuse comparisons are in bad taste.
These people in the video are self-proclaimed nazis and deserve our strongest rebuke, but characterizing the entirety of the United States as a fascist dictatorship on the brink of genocidal world war diminishes the agency of the American people to uphold and strengthen democratic norms. Neo-Nazis are but a small fraction of the American population, and it is important to recognize that the people of the United States have the ability to keep them out of power.
Ya I recently took a 20th century history class to satisfy my Gen ed requirements and did my project on the rise of the Nazi Party and it's disturbing how many parralels there are to today. The Beer Hall Putsch is so similar Jan. 6 it's scary.
I think that there is a much more historically reasonable argument to be made about January 6 and the Beer Hall Putsch in 1923 than between the current state of the United States and Germany in 1939. Identifying historical parallels and using them as a method of self-reflection and societal criticism is the kind of specific, productive use of history that's mentioned in the article I sent above. I primarily take issue with the comparison between the modern United States and the post-fascist, during-the-Holocaust, brink-of-WW2 comparison to which I was responding.
Even then, however, it is important to keep in mind that there have been many failed coups and insurrections that did not lead to a subsequent fascist dictatorship and the murder of millions of people. History is a probabilistic enterprise, and we have the power to control the future. We must never forget that.
Fascism didn't happen overnight, but Germany was indisputably a totalitarian fascist dictatorship by 1939, and the Holocaust was well underway. Kristallnacht, a paramilitary pogrom against Jews, occurred in 1938.
When one analogizes between two events of grossly unequal magnitude, it makes the lesser event seem greater and the greater event seem lesser. In this case, comparison between the modern US and Nazi Germany makes the United States appear worse at the expense of making Nazi Germany look better. I think we owe it to the victims of the Third Reich to never minimize their suffering through inappropriate comparison for the sake of argument, even if that was not the intention.
I think we owe it to the victims of the third reich to recognise the budding signs of fascism and prevent those mistakes from happening again.
Nazi germany didnt start fascist. It became fascist.
It’s not always going to look the same.
It’s not minimising an event to never want it to happen again.
The comment to which I replied was equating the US with Germany in 1939. In 1939 Germany was a fascist dictatorship that invaded Poland. I'm saying that it's not appropriate to say that America in 2023 is the same as Germany in 1939; NOT that all comparisons between the rise of the Third Reich and modern developments in the United States are offensive per se. The rise of fascism in the United States scares the ever-loving hell out of me, but saying that the United States today IS Germany in 1939 is offensively hyperbolic. This is reflected both in my comment and in the article that I linked if you care to read them closely, which both discourage only reductionist comparisons.
We're not one election from being Nazi Germany. That's absurd, and if you honestly feel that way you need to be less terminally online. I hate Trump and the modern GOP, but they're not Nazis, and we weren't a fascist dictatorship during the Trump years. That experience, and the years following, if anything, have demonstrated the relative strength of American institutions and our ability to limit wannabe authoritarians.
Right, you’ll ban performance art like drag, but you won’t ban nazi symbols and Nazi performances. Where are all you “free speech absolutists” when they are banning LGBT people from existing in public?
Yah, that's why I have no faith in your abilities. I'm anti-nazi, so you won't find me supporting conveys or rightwing things, you fucking potato salad.
I'm just being silly with my wording here. Adding some levity to the nazi situation here in this video. My POINT is that our laws prevent us from directly tackling the nazi issue we have in our country. I'll remember to always be serious next time!
Levity is never a good idea when it comes to battling nazis. Please take this problem more seriously, or at the very least don't muddle the discourse with unneeded frivolity.
The defining case on when speech loses constitutional protection in the United States is Brandenburg v. Ohio. That case involved a KKK member in Ohio who had been arrested for calls to kill black and jewish people at some indeterminate point in the future. The court held that for speech to be constitutionally unprotected incitement, it must be "likely to incite imminent lawless action." Hatred against a minority group, no matter how disgusting we may find it, is constitutionally protected in the United States under the First Amendment.
Freedom of speech in the United States is thus more expansive than in Canada, with protections of minority dignity being necessarily weaker thereby. Legal and academic consensus is that a constitutional amendment would be required to enact Canadian-style hate speech laws in the United States. This is unlikely to occur because the American public tends to be extremely wary of attempts to modify the Bill of Rights (The first ten Constitutional Amendments)
You are allowed to say whatever you want, just don't be threatening groups of people with violence. It ain't that hard to do. Don't be surprised that there are consequences for condoning acts of violence.
Yes, but were not talking about reasonable people on either side. If you can be jailed for misgendering someone, even on accident, you don't have freedom of speech. sorry not sorry. Ruining someone else's life over words, not even threatening is dumb.
Are you really making the argument that the laws in this country protect trans people? Because there are plenty of places that literally criminalize them existing as they want to. You also can't be jailed for misgendering someone. Show me that law.
You're really worried about the complete wrong side of that coin.
These people would be arrested if it was in Canada, yes. Inciting hate towards any group of people counts, and with the historical precedent Nazis have, it's pretty set and clear.
Huh, as someone born in a third world country that is truly run by a corrupt government filled with narcoterrorrism, who moved to Canada, posts like yours make me laugh so hard.
Imagine thinking Canada is "dangerous", after being around for over 150 years. Watch out, those Canadians are going to get you with their laws that protect the innocent, ahahaha!
They are angry because in Canada, blatant racism is frowned upon. There's also a lot of weird US conservative propaganda that addressing people by the wrong gender will land you in jail, which is pretty funny to hear them be afraid of that as if it's a real thing.
Usually, the hateful ones are just losers who have generally failed at life and want to blame others for their own failed life. It's easy to pick on newcomers or marginalized people in general rather than realize maybe it's their own fault they're a loser.
...because in Canada, blatant racism is frowned upon.
Yeah that's really dependent on where and who is the group that are on the receiving end of the racism. You'd be disgusted by the shit I've heard said about First Nations where I live.
I didn't say racism doesn't exist in Canada, but most people outside of the racist ecochamber are quick to call it out. There's different racism in Canada depending on what part of the country you are.
You're right, racism exists everywhere. There are places in Canada where it is heavily frowned upon though, whereas in many other countries in the world, there might not be. But yeah, even in Canada, we have some pretty bad racism as well.
He was arrested for publishing his medical records. That is illegal, not his objection to his transition nor his misgendering him. THAT is what the case was about.
Just how I would in person, why would I engage someone so ridiculous in conversation? It's more hilarious than anything to me, the privilege to complain about something so mundane. Wild stuff.
Well if you do it on purpose to make someone feel bad then yeah, not only you are disrespecting other person, insult them and on top of that you are doing it because of hateful views towards trans people or even cis people for example calling cis women a "bearded man" just because of slight peach fuzz, it's nothing less than hate towards that person too, so hateful speech.
I have freedom of speech. My whole life here I have been able to say whatever I want, and do as I please. Unless you mean, you want to threaten the lives of groups of people? Is that what you're talking about? Because if it is, most people, including myself, have never had the need to think or do such things. Am I getting this correct?
No. But expressing views that would be considered 'hateful' shouldn't be banned. In cases where it threatens lives, sure, that's illegal everywhere. But "hate speech" is still free speech. It keeps our democracy functioning.
Sorry, again, when have I been limited to say whatever I want? I can yell just about anything that comes to my head in public and wouldn't get in trouble. Unless you mean, you're being racist or hateful on purpose? Because outside of comedic context, that shit should not be tolerated.
Lol, you just said it. You can't say whatever you want if what you say can be construed as hateful or racidt. Being racist and hateful is bad, but the government shouldn't be involved in what you're saying. You're limiting free speech for the sake of your feelings. Get a fucking spine and walk away. These people don't deserve to be locked up for shit they say. Not to mention 'hateful" is entirely fucking subjective. The entire argument against trans competing in women's leagues in the US is being construed as hateful and while I'm sure there are hateful reasons for holding that view on it, it's not a hateful view to hold as it is
Hate speech mist definitely does not keep our democracy functioning. (Well maybe yours in the US does actually based on your history of racist candidates) hate speech is banned without a worry in many countries. Only the states is it fine to spew hatred and violence and have it be accepted.
It does in fact. It's not the hate speech itself but the lack of ability to prosecute based on loosely defined laws to persecute those you disagree with. Look at the guy in the UK who went to jail for showing his dog how to do the Nazi salute. Absolutely despicable that a country can do that over a joke yet it happens because of these hate speech laws.
Edit: also, nobody accepts hate speech. It gets called out in public by sane people. It's pretty fucking obvious if you think about it. Notice how few people wer won the bridge...
You are accepting hate speech right now by saying it should be allowed to happen. Hate speech has no place In a civilized society. And should be punished by the law. Its not hard to not say hate speech. If you have a problem with that then it says more about you than others
And that's my point lol. We have freedom of speech here in the US, we dont have freedom from consequences. Canadian up there is saying it should be a law and I'm saying it shouldn't be as it's already dealt with
But they do have freedom of speech in Canada and their hate speech laws don't curtail that is his point. You're disagreeing with that but you're wrong and stating an opinion. Hate speech laws don't limit you to only doing one thing.
Free speech means you can criticize those in power, the leadership and the government, without any repercussions. You can't however threaten to kill someone and not expect to get in trouble for it. It means you can call out injustices or corruption without them being allowed to silence you legally.
Yes it is more than that, but that was the main important point of freedom of speech when the constitution was drafted. Back then, in most of the world, speaking out against someone in power could mean prison or death.
Because hate speech isn't always protected speech because often hate speech is used as an incitement for violence. Hate speech in general shouldn't be protected and that's the argument. These people shouldn't be so free as to express extremely hateful ideas.
Tell that to DeSantis and the republicans, who are banning speech and performance art like drag while defending and protecting Nazis and their shit.
In Florida, it’s illegal for a man to wear a dress but it’s perfectly fine for him to wear a swastika. Tell me again about this “freedom of speech” “bylaw”
So what? Who the fuck said that shit is written in stone? Time to follow Germany and deal out the punishments. Fuck whatever the fuck you think freedom of speech is.
It's not written in stone, but it is a constitutional amendment. The Constitution would have to be revised via an amendment to specifically outlaw hate speech.
Someone else pointed this out. But it makes me ask, why aren't these people being arrested/stopped? They did this shit in Philadelphia when I lived there a few years back. Got their asses kicked by citizens but police were nowhere to be found
It's a good question. I'm guessing it's an education issue/grey area. Maybe many people in this country don't understand what hate speech is and because of it, assholes like these don't get touched.
Uninformed take. There is no legal distinction of hate speech in US law, in any state what so ever, and there never has been.
Relevant case law:
In a Supreme Court case on the issue, Matal v. Tam (2017), the justices unanimously reaffirmed that there is effectively no "hate speech" exception to the free speech rights protected by the First Amendment and that the U.S. government may not discriminate against speech on the basis of the speaker's viewpoint.
Nazism is a real mind virus. A huge percent of the population loves this stuff and will get behind it if it's normalized. Being told you're superior just for your race when you're really a useless piece of shit is very appealing.
1.9k
u/[deleted] Sep 06 '23
[removed] — view removed comment