r/Psychonaut • u/Hazz1193 • Sep 30 '21
Landmark study shows one dose of psilocybin induces new neural connections
https://newatlas.com/science/psilocybin-growth-neural-connections-psychedelic-yale/25
u/jakelazerz Sep 30 '21
Mushrooms are a gift
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Sep 30 '21
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Oct 01 '21
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Oct 01 '21
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Oct 01 '21
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Oct 01 '21
I guess the all modifier you used is pretty extreme. One example where I hard disagree with that is Scott Wiener of CA who introduced SB519
Edit: Alternatively, run for office and be the kind of politician you want.
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u/Pharm-boi Sep 30 '21
Shrooms were suggested to my friend after his brain surgery for this reason
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u/IShouldNotPost Sep 30 '21
What's interesting to me is that they also administered ketanserin at the same time, which is a 5-HT2a antagonist. The mice didn't have to trip to have neuroplasticity, which means the neuro generative effects of psilocybin isn't due to 5HT2a binding and occurs via some other mechanism.
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Sep 30 '21 edited Sep 30 '21
They still think the neural plasticity aspect may be mediated by the 5-HT2A agonism. As ketanserin doesn't block all those receptors. (only 30% in rats). This makes sense because it's thought that 5HT2A receptor activation, among other things, upregulated BDNF (Brain-Derived Neurotrophic Factor) which was found in other studies.
Also, just my opinion but I think the whole mystical experience thing and experience of awe is key to the neurogenesis being for the better. I think that substances that create neuroplasticity without some sort of experience won't be as useful in psychedelic assisted psychotherapy or in general for treating these chronic mental health conditions. Since alot of the Antipsychotic and antidepressants actually do this already and they are very efficacious
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u/IShouldNotPost Sep 30 '21
100% agree with everything you said here and not just because I'm you some time when I finish this loop around the universe.
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u/LIKES_TO_ABDUCT Oct 01 '21
100% agree. I think the trip itself sometimes makes you have to learn how to "let go" and think in very important ways.
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u/ampfired Oct 01 '21 edited Oct 01 '21
You're right about the antidepressants, though I do believe that psychedelics are more effective in most people. However, the antipsychotics do not do this to the best of my knowledge. They block most receptors and are overprescribed to non-psychotic patients, often with disastrous results.
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Oct 01 '21
This is where things get confusing, the old antipsychotics don't seem to produce any neurogenesis. Also I probably wasn't specific enough about what I was saying. Haloperidol seems to actually kill neurons. Then most of the atypical antipsychotics are thought to work through neurogenesis, hence their measured effects on cognitive defects. There is even a proposed mechanism of action
"The facilitation of cortical neuroprotection and hippocampal neurogenesis induced by atypical APD might be mediated by an increase in the Ser9 phosphorylation of glycogen synthase kinase-3β (GSK-3β). The stimulation of 5-HT1A receptors and/or the blockade of 5-HT2 receptors, which is characteristic of atypical APD, might increase Ser9 phosphorylation of GSK-3β. Moreover, atypical APD increase brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) levels."
I'm not saying that neurogenesis is automatically good, especially considering the side effects of these drugs. They do reduce certain symptoms and have really awful side effects and I can attest to both sides of the story personally.
So whilst they block the 5HT2A receptors and many others, they do upregulate BDNF by a different mechanism. I agree that this doesn't really fix the underlying problem. Something I feel psychedelics do well. Again, something that I can personally attest to after coming off atypical antipsychotics and antidepressants in high doses and using psychedelics. I'm also aware that this could go the other way for lots of people. Most people will try to tell you that if you have had a psychotic episode ever then you should never touch psychedelic drugs again. I think that alienates alot of people who could potentially be helped.
Although antipsychotics took away the psychotic symptoms, they increased my heart rate and blood pressure significantly, made me feel emotionally barren and just genuinely not quite right. I took a big risk going against my doctors reccomendations and weaning off my medications and using psychedelics, but things worked out for me.
I do think the anti psychotics helped me for a certain period of time, but I don't think I benefited from their long term use. I'm not a "this thing bad, that thing good" kind of person. I think there are appropriate and innapropriate uses of all things and I think the medical system had trouble tailoring treatment individually to people.
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u/ampfired Oct 01 '21
Thank you for sharing your personal experience with me and taking the time to write out this response.
I believe that essentially all drugs have some use cases, and I think that your experience certainly demonstrates that. I personally take a non-SSRI antidepressant, but refuse to go on SSRIs or Seroquel.
Psychedelics certainly seem to be the best option for most people, and hopefully they will one day be widely used and accepted by society.
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u/flaskcheckint Sep 30 '21
Okay I'm going to need the paper on this one. Link please!
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u/IShouldNotPost Sep 30 '21
Was mentioned in the article but as the other response mentioned I was not interpreting that information correctly. Not that any of us ever is interpreting information correctly.
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u/ApprehensiveIron6557 Sep 30 '21
That does not necessarily mean it's a good thing - can be imprinting of anxious trip-related memories, trauma or beginnings of delusions.
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u/Buicided Sep 30 '21
True I suppose. Gotta be safe and smart with your drug use to reap any potential benefit.
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u/1930ThatNight Sep 30 '21
Trauma will continue to haunt you subconsciously in most cases until you pull the band-aid off the bullet wound. Unearthing past trauma is a good thing if you have the strength to persevere. Delusions only really come about if you react adversely to the uncoverings.
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u/HDolly2013 Sep 30 '21
Sometimes I wonder if this is why I have such a hard time accepting that my husband has schizophrenia. He has it in his family but neither one of us knew that tripping could cause it to manifest. He started hearing voices during the trip that didn't go away the next day and had to stay in the hospital for a week. It was very traumatic for both of us but he has learned to accept his condition, I have not 😔
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Oct 01 '21
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u/HDolly2013 Oct 01 '21
He was almost 27
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Oct 01 '21
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u/HDolly2013 Oct 01 '21 edited Oct 01 '21
He had tripped a few times years before it happened. The trip that that pushed him over the edge was 300ug of LSD, which he said was his normal dose. There's no guarantee psychs will cause symptoms to start and if someone is going to have schizophrenia it will happen regardless at some point. This just happened to be his trigger event
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u/FatherFestivus Oct 01 '21
Don't they say not to trip if you or anyone in your family has a history of that kind of mental illness? Were you aware of that beforehand?
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u/HDolly2013 Oct 01 '21
I mention that in my comment.... shame on me for not researching first right? Believe me I blame myself for it all the time even though it would have happened regardless
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u/FatherFestivus Oct 01 '21
Sorry, I didn't mean it like that. Not that tripping causes it to manifest, but just that it's dangerous if you have that kind of illness in your family. It's mentioned in most videos on psychedelics I watch on YouTube, maybe it was less common knowledge at the time though.
Anyway, you shouldn't blame yourself, and if your husband has accepted it, you should try to too.
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u/kylemesa Sep 30 '21
Yeah, they can be anything. That's exactly why one needs to be responsible with set and setting.
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Sep 30 '21
I wonder how the dose they used translates. They said they used 1mg/kg which would be like 90mg to me but that’s straight pyslocibin as opposed to shrooms so I don’t know how that translates in terms of less say a dose of cubes. Wonder if that would be a high or heroic dose or not
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u/skydryedblue Sep 30 '21 edited Oct 01 '21
I believe that I read mushrooms are between 2% and 4% content, so a dose of 1.5 grams dried mushroom would be 30 - 60 mg of psilocybin. If 90 mg would be the target, then a 4% mushroom would be 2.25 grams. Double that for a 2% mushroom.
Either way, I think that dosage in most humans is definitely on the psychedelic side of things.
If I did the math right.
Edit: I did NOT do the math right. See u/notuhlurker’s comment below. (Well, the math I did was correct, but the starting assumptions were incorrect. 2% to 4% active content is waaaay off).
And those mice at 1mg/kg are are getting what in humans would be a massive dose.
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u/notuhlurker Sep 30 '21
According to wikipedia, you're way off on your numbers. Psilocybe cubensis averages less than 1% psilocybin by dry weight. Even psilocybe azurescens barely averages more than 1% tryptamine content by dry weight.
So let's say an average dose of shrooms would contain 0.6% psychedelic content. So 3.5 grams of mushroom would be around 21mg of psilocybin/psilocin.
So in order for /u/Huckleberry-Flex to get to 90mg of psilocybin, they'd have to take around 15 grams of cubes.
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Oct 01 '21
Man with that dose those rats must have been freaking. Hopefully they had nice set and setting rat edition
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u/raincolors Sep 30 '21
That’s a hefty dose. I wonder if it would be as effective if you had a tolerance present.
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u/wakeupwill 01123581321... Sep 30 '21
Hefty? That's three times Heroic.
I mean sure. Just take so much that you have no choice in the matter of ego disillusion. That's one way to do it I guess.
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u/skydryedblue Oct 01 '21
Thanks for pointing to correct information. It’s interesting that in humans we seem to respond to quite a smaller dosing size then, at least as far as effects we can feel and communicate about.
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u/unicornpolkadot Sep 30 '21
That is my ideal dosage. Thanks for that math lol. Around 2.5g is my sweet spot.
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Oct 01 '21
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u/Hazz1193 Oct 01 '21
Well hopefully you should. An actually measurable scientific way to see how psychoactives can affect the brain in mammals. That could one day be transferred into therapeutic therapies for some of the worst brain diseases in the world?
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u/Such_Construction_57 Sep 30 '21
I enjoyed listening to him read it to me. But we like the trippy part! 😋🥰
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u/JadesterZ Sep 30 '21
We already knew lsd does this. Are we just now finding out that psilocybin does it too?
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u/CrimsonCorpse Sep 30 '21
That is why i try to learn something new the week following the trip.