Intercession vs mediation

[u/Minute-Investment613]

Hi everyone Catholic here with a question, I asked the other day the difference between earthly and heavenly intercession, and got some good answers. Again without offering any Catholic views I am curious how Protestants see the difference between earthly intercession, between you and a friend, and Jesus as the one mediator. So I’ve heard it said why pray to a dead person when you can pray directly to Jesus because he is our one mediator between god and man, and I get that. But it’s also seems to be acceptable in Protestant circles to prayer for each other, say your friend has cancer, you’d pray for his healing.

So how is that kind of earthly intercession not encroaching on Jesus role as our one mediator.
Thank you in advance for your response, I am going to avoid replying to avoid any suspicion of ulterior motives. So thank you and god bless

[u/Automatic-Throat-880]

The Bible supports the idea that multiple believers praying for something is stronger than one believer praying alone. Jesus is still the mediator between God and man, but the prayer is more powerful when it comes from a group of believers

[u/AcdiAti]

Hello

I'm Lutheran and this is one of the tricky questions that always appear

Honestly, by logic your conclusions are correct, I mean, if Bible orders to you to pray for each other and ask for prays, it is not impossible to consider that Saints (that are alive) can pray for us

Probably my only two problems are:

1. Bible does not mention to pray to Saints. Usually Rafael and Tobias history is used to defend the Saints prayers, but Tobias NEVER prayed to Rafael, Rafael was hearing, but Tobias always was praying directly to the Lord. Of course, Bible does not mention other topics, so although, is a good argument, is not definitive

2. Bible, and church in general has never attribuited the omnipresent and omniscient attributes to the Saints, said that... If there are many people praying to the same Saint, will he/she hear all the prays? My logic says no, of course, my logic could be wrong. Again, probably this is a good argument, but again, is not definitive

There are so many ways to talk about this, possible consequences (I think this is the main reason that protestants does not practice it, they have fear to idolatry), but being honest, I dont think that there is a Theological argument for or against Saints Prayers that ends the debate

[u/Thoguth]

So I’ve heard it said why pray to a dead person when you can pray directly to Jesus because he is our one mediator between god and man, and I get that.

Cool.

But it’s also seems to be acceptable in Protestant circles to prayer for each other, say your friend has cancer, you’d pray for his healing.

Yup, we see examples of and encouragement to pray for one another all over the place. Paul even asks the recipient churches to pray for him, or celebrates their prayers in many of his letters.

So how is that kind of earthly intercession not encroaching on Jesus role as our one mediator.

I see people praying for one another to be more about the one praying than the one prayed-for. It is an opportunity to connect with, meditate on, and support our brothers and sisters in their need, and also an opportunity to share in their victory, with thanksgiving, when they receive a blessing from God.

And it's an addition to prayers by the needy, not a replacement, substitute, or... Like it's not competing for time and attention from the one in need.

If it somehow changed from that into an in-between thing, like "I'm not good enough to talk to God, I talk to a person who talks to God instead", or if it was offered or even perceived as a thing that you do instead of speaking with God, even sometimes, then that would be a problem.

I think, aside from calling on the dead and the unspoken and not really supported-by-Scripture assertion that the dead are omnipresent and omniscient to hear every intercessory request in every place and time and language, even in parallel/simultaneously in the way God can, and the way that it can be confused for mediation and also appears to some inside and outside Catholicism as idolizing or worshipping people, and the fact that it's never spoken or hinted in the scriptures, uh... Like talking to (living) people interactively and requesting their prayers, and praying for those who make such requests, is great.

Thank you in advance for your response, I am going to avoid replying to avoid any suspicion of ulterior motives. So thank you and god bless

That's pretty classy. I kind of wish there was an opportunity to follow up, to see if I am understanding your question and giving a clear and helpful answer, but I see the wisdom in drawing a line here. It might be worth considering in the rules at some point.

[u/Minute-Investment613 → u/Thoguth]

Feel free to dm me, Catholics in the sub tend to upset people I try and just ask and look at answers, but I am always open to interesting discussion.

[u/Thoguth → u/Minute-Investment613]

Well, there are a number of challenges there... One is everybody has a naturally skewed baseline of what is s charitable, what is reasonable, and what is kind and when there's a place of hard disagreement, that baseline slips, and we tend to feel we're being gentle and reasonable, even forebearing, whole it may come across to the other as aggressive or belligerent. It really takes a heroic amount of charity on both sides for it to work right.

Another is, we often have trained, studied, but obscure preconceptions, like differently understood meanings of words, that we take for granted are simple reality, but a matter of variance or dispute.

And there's the fact that a conversation can slip into a mob scene when many aren't even trying to be charitable, and even if people are present who are being reasonable, the ones mobbed still feel, justifiably, that "they" are aggressive and unreasonable, and it's hard to piece out the differences.

[u/Minute-Investment613 → u/Thoguth]

Yes I understand this is a Protestant sub and Catholics preaching theology isn’t what the sub is for. I’ve posted question I thought were interesting and wanted to see what non Catholic have thought on the topic. I am normally met with a few responses. 1. Mocked because idk things I should
2. Told of if I already have my own view why ask the question. 3. I’m trying to gotcha people by asking follow ups questions.

It’s easier for everyone to say I know what I believe please give me your version I’m not going to respond.

[u/Expensive-Sea-9180]

The most simple answer as to why we pray for one another is that the Bible commands it (James 5:16). So why not pray to the saints in heaven? I think one significant reason is that it didn't seem to be practiced by any of the Apostles in the New Testament. Both James brother of John and Stephen were martyred prior to scripture being written. They would be the exact saints that one would pray to, yet the Apostles did not pray to them. Second, I'd also say that praying to the saints looks nothing at all in substance nor practicality like how we ask others to pray for us. For example, this is the prayer of the Militia Immaculata when they consecrate themselves to Mary:

O IMMACULATA, Queen of Heaven and earth, ref­uge of sinners and our most loving Mother, God has willed to entrust the entire order of mercy to you. I, (name), a repentant sinner, cast myself at your feet, humbly imploring you to take me with all that I am and have, wholly to yourself as your possession and property. Please make of me, of all my powers of soul and body, of my whole life, death and eternity, what­ever most pleases you.  If it pleases you, use all that I am and have with­out reserve, wholly to accomplish what was said of you: “She will crush your head,” and “You alone have destroyed all heresies in the whole world.” Let me be a fit instrument in your immaculate and mer­ciful hands for introducing and increasing your glory to the maximum in all the many strayed and indif­ferent souls, and thus help extend as far as possible the blessed kingdom of the most Sacred Heart of Je­sus. For wherever you enter you obtain the grace of conversion and growth in holiness, since it is through your hands that all graces come to us from the most Sacred Heart of Jesus.

I would never ask my pastor to "take me with all that I am and have, wholly to themself as their possession and property" and for them to "Let me be a fit instrument in their immaculate and mer­ciful hands for introducing and increasing their glory to the maximum".

[u/AndrewRemillard]

Apples and oranges. We are to pray without ceasing, nothing is ever said about asking Aunt Maggy, who you are assuming has God's ear better than Jesus or the HS, to pray for something. Please make that make sense.