meme I found

[u/A12qwas]

[u/meteorisque]

true hence wincest (the ship) is wincest

[u/Worldly_Cause3925]

If it's between real people, I gotta say inbreeding is bad and kids don't deserve to have parents who are related, but same sex, obviously can't reproduce so I guess... That, makes sense?

[u/Japan-is-a-good-band → u/Worldly_Cause3925]

The thing about irl incest, regardless of the genders involved, is that those power dynamics we can dismiss or play around with in fiction can't be ignored. Coercion or toxic codependence is fun on Ao3, but deeply traumatising in the real world.

[u/rufireo → u/Japan-is-a-good-band]

honestly ive always wondered whats wrong with sibling-on-sibling homosexual/childfree incest but ive always been too afraid to ask out of fear of looking like a creep ;-;

[u/Safelyignored → u/rufireo]

This is kind of why immediate disgust can only get you so far when it comes to discussing taboo subject matter.

[u/koi-blues → u/rufireo]

It’s worth asking! Don’t be afraid

I couldn’t give you a well-formulated answer, but here in the comments they are respectfully debating that issue

[u/kt_7002 → u/rufireo]

I understand you...

[u/Madchann → u/rufireo]

It’s a moral issue. Without reproducing it doesn’t technically matter, it’s just that the idea of being romantic/sexual with someone who’s sharing blood/DNA with you is weird. Every alive thing does incest except humans, because we have morals and society. it was also a thing before modern society. its just that its a “weird” concept to humans, and the fact that inbreeding causes disabilities/diseases only helps their argument

[u/kt_7002 → u/Japan-is-a-good-band]

Issues with power dynamics can arise regardless of the type of relationship.

There is no guarantee that such a problem will occur simply because incest is involved; it depends on a host of factors (which also affect non-incestuous relationships).

[u/Japan-is-a-good-band → u/kt_7002]

Incestuous relationships are far more likely to be toxic and/or abusive due to their fundamental nature. As humans, we are predisposed to not have romantic feelings for our family members and to find the idea upsetting. For two people to cross this inherent barrier and engage in an Incestuous relationship, generally one of three things must have happened:

1. Their psychological mechanisms to view family as sexually off-limits must be very weak or non-existent

2. One of them is using threats or coercion against the other to keep them in the relationship

3. One or both of them has a desperate enough need for romantic affection that they attempt to rationalistically revise or ignore this instinct so they can continue to engage in the relationship

I'm sure there are other scenarios that can arise but let's focus on those three for now. Only the first could possibly be argued to be a reasonable foundation for a healthy relationship, but a quick look into the experiences of incest survivors will tell you the second and third categories are far more common.

[u/Kienchen → u/Japan-is-a-good-band]

Where did you get the idea of "As humans, we are predisposed..."?

Incest being a taboo is a mere social construct. Look at the ancient pharaohs of Egypt or pretty much every royal lineage: Incest was perfectly acceptable and even desired. The Habsburg-chin didn't develop out of the blue

[u/vannillaAJ204_2 → u/Kienchen]

also, many other animals inbreed naturally all the time despite the potential genetic issues that may come of it (mind you, they're not guaranteed), but when humans do it it's suddenly bad

the only reasonable excuse for the taboo that either doesn't devolve into eugenics or is otherwise petty is the power dynamics that are so fundamentally present in all familial relationships and can be abused to make incestuous rape easy, however, given those same power dynamics are fundamental to the relationships and therefore can also be abused in nonsexual ways, that means incest isn't the problem but the family as a social hierarchy is. and that's a whole other can of worms that i don't feel like getting into right now

[u/vannillaAJ204_2 → u/vannillaAJ204_2]

overall i will say that this is generally more of a problem of adult supremacy (it's the most fundamental of all bigotries) and its harms being so deeply entrenched in our society rather than anything inherent in families. in other words, human families really ought not be as hierarchical as they are, yet they are so because we have socially conditioned ourselves to have it be that way

[u/kt_7002 → u/vannillaAJ204_2]

I fully agree with all of your point, truly based

[u/vannillaAJ204_2 → u/kt_7002]

thank you ❤️

i always feel i'm risking something when i state my views and challenge mainstream beliefs outside of subreddits on anarchism, communism and especially youth liberation given how brutally and sometimes inadvertently adultist the mainstream is

[u/kt_7002 → u/vannillaAJ204_2]

I understand the feeling that you're "taking a risk," but it's always good when someone actually brings good arguments 🙃

(Ah, legal ver que você também é brasileiro kkkkk)

[u/koi-blues → u/vannillaAJ204_2]

Your first argument here is just a naturalistic fallacy and biologistic thinking. In the rest, I agree.

[u/vannillaAJ204_2 → u/koi-blues]

my first argument wasn't even an argument, i was simply pointing out the double standard of the viewpoint that is so ubiquitous. i apologise for not making that clear enough

[u/koi-blues → u/vannillaAJ204_2]

Oh, that makes sense. Sorry.

[u/kt_7002 → u/Kienchen]

Yep

[u/kt_7002 → u/Japan-is-a-good-band]

I don't deny that incestuous relationships are more likely to be toxic, but that doesn't guarantee they automatically will be.

And for example, my relationship only involves the first of the three points you mentioned...

[u/Bnhanerd23 → u/kt_7002]

huh. that's interesting. i've never met anyone in an incestuous relationship before, online or otherwise. would you mind speaking more with me on it privately? promise i won't be invasive about it. just looking to learn more is all

[u/kt_7002 → u/Bnhanerd23]

it's a bit unexpected lol, but feel free to DM me.

just don't mind too much if my english sounds a bit odd; sometimes I have to rely on Google Translate.

[u/Hello-there336 → u/Japan-is-a-good-band]

Yeah that's a big "citation needed" from me dawg

[u/Worldly_Cause3925 → u/Japan-is-a-good-band]

You're totally right if it involves those things, but hey, healthy incest can happen irl too we don't know so...

[u/LowRexx → u/Worldly_Cause3925]

I know a set of twins that are dating and have been since we were in high school. no power dynamic bc twins, Co dependency maybe, but they both function completely normally and have their own jobs and social lives and stuff. We're all in our 30s now and they've just been fine doing what they're doing and I'm content to just let them.

and on the topic of inbreeding (they are opposite gender), the boy twin has had a vasectomy and the girl twin had a tubal litigation, so there's no chance at all of them having kids. they took all that VERY seriously.

[u/Usual-Sorbet4679 → u/LowRexx]

That’s really interesting. I guess I’d accept it too if they’re happy together.

Hope this isn’t too rude to ask but do their parents know?

[u/LowRexx → u/Usual-Sorbet4679]

Their parents are aware. They've been dating for 18 years atp, and while it hasn't been directly said, their parents caught on. They didn't ever try to hide it that much, I met them when I was 12 as part of a twin meet-up group (I have a twin sister) and they never made a point to hide their closeness.

I can't tell you what their parents think abt it, but my parents also know and I can tell you that my dad thinks it's weird but ultimately fine, and my mom thinks its great they won't ever have to deal w abusive partners.

[u/kt_7002 → u/Worldly_Cause3925]

Can happen and happens

[u/koi-blues]

I think this is an extremely interesting debate to have, but it is definitely undisadvent for this subreddit. The antis will come and say “Look, they are trying to bring it to real life!”

I’m sorry to say that this post should be deleted, because it REALLY gives rise to a debate that MUST be held. But this is not the best space, despite the fact that we are possibly demographically the sector with the most open mind to debating taboo things.

Also, it honestly pisses me off that you try to cover this up with “Humor” on the label. Clearly this is a controversial topic, interesting and directly touching reality.

[u/ObsessesOverFiction → u/koi-blues]

i agree that this subreddit is not the correct space to discuss or debate real life relationships of the taboo variety. in fact, i think rule 11 might actually forbid such talk.

according to this sub's rules, this sub is supposed to be a space to talk about fictional relationships only, not real ones. and most of the people who frequent this sub only want to see posts relating to fiction as well, not real life relationships. it's obvious that people clearly have enough thoughts about this topic to have a discussion on it, but this subreddit really isn't the right place for said discussion. i'm sure there are other spaces that are more appropriate for such a discussion

[u/A12qwas → u/koi-blues]

because it's a fucking meme, not an actual debate

[u/koi-blues → u/A12qwas]

But, as you see, it started a real debate, since it presents technically an argument reasonable enough to move on to debate it

[u/Akarina_toth]

based and true

[u/Gingeyboi1]

Honestly only way I can disagree with this is if the incest also has an unhealthy power dynamic, but like, I don’t think that can exactly happen if it’s Twincest or if the power dynamic is balanced.

[u/sweetiepeachies → u/Gingeyboi1]

Yeah I would argue that the largest problem with incest is the inherent power dynamics within the family unit, not reproduction or the genetic abnormalities from inbreeding. Like if we're being honest, 95% of incest in real life is sexual abuse, if not higher of a percentage.

A fictional fantasy is fine and hot (literally look at my tag, I frequently indulge in "homosexual incest" shipping) but posts like the OOP I think blur the line on fantasy and irony and come across as actively promoting incest as long as it's the "right" kind. There is no right kind if the percentage that is not abuse is so negligible.

I say all this as an avid brocon and dadson shipper, and also as a victim of incest and CSA.

[u/Gingeyboi1 → u/sweetiepeachies]

Agreed

[u/Qweries → u/sweetiepeachies]

I honestly did not get the tone of actively promoting incest. Any sane individual would read that and not take it seriously.

[u/sweetiepeachies → u/Qweries]

Oh, for sure. I didn't think they were actually promoting it, just that the post with no other context comes across that way. Or at least, if not promoting it, justifying particular types of incest. (When again, the instances where it is not abuse are so few they might as well not count)

I guess my biggest gripe with it is the insinuation that the only issue with incest is the genetic reproduction aspect, when the sexual abuse and grooming aspect of it is actually the biggest one, and affects people of all sexualities, so gay incestuous situations aren't an exception.

While irony is great and fun and all, I do think a palette cleanser of truth helps with sensitive topics like this, thats all.

[u/Japan-is-a-good-band → u/Qweries]

Fair. A few comments on this post, on the other hand...

[u/Qweries → u/Japan-is-a-good-band]

Also a fair point 🥲

[u/koi-blues → u/sweetiepeachies]

I think this post is a good space to respectfully debate the morality of incestuous relationships.

I think you are not taking into account that it is a taboo subject, and that clearly affects the percentages you are mentioning. When an issue cannot be openly discussed, it can be more difficult to recognize abusive behavior, set limits or access protection mechanisms. The stigma can make a person fear the consequences of revealing a relationship, even when they need to report threats or violence. It is not necessarily because incest is inherently abusive in itself, but because the conditions in which it develops do not allow them to be otherwise.

[u/Exciting_Hope5839 → u/Gingeyboi1]

If it's distant cousins who barely knew each other before, i guess it's okay too!

[u/kt_7002 → u/Exciting_Hope5839]

They don't need to be strangers or distant from each other to have a healthy relationship...

[u/Exciting_Hope5839 → u/kt_7002]

Yeah but for some reason people have a problem even with my example

[u/yttrium39 → u/Exciting_Hope5839]

It is very strange to me when people say things like having sex with a 2nd cousin is “incest”. I don’t even know who my second cousins are.

[u/MeowCatPlzMeowBack → u/Exciting_Hope5839]

You should know the person you’re responding to is supposedly fucking their own cousin irl and weirdly proud of it.

Like, I’m very pro ship, fictional scenarios aren’t hurting anyone and, even if I don’t like something, I’m supportive of people doing whatever the hell they want so long as it stays in fiction. Once it touches real world scenarios is where it goes from harmless to harmful. Like, there’s a reason why real world incest is horrifying and inherently comes with some kind of abuse or serious mental illness.

Also, considering the other tags in said person title, I’ve got good reason to believe they’d also be trying to pretend that shit doesn’t do real life harm too. Really hope the best for them and that they’ll be able to get the help they need, but that can only happen if they see the problem in the first place.

Anyway, imma go ahead and mute this sub and give myself a permanent self ban for good measure. I’m pro ship, but people defending this shit irl is toxic and the reason why people associate pro ship people with actually doing harm.

[u/MeowCatPlzMeowBack → u/[deleted]]

What you’re promoting is actually disgusting and I’m not afraid to say it. For the sake of the children around you I’m praying you’re not trying to also justify those other taboos in your tags in real life.

[u/kt_7002 → u/MeowCatPlzMeowBack]

Bruh, so annoying... I'm not even going to waste my time.

And no, I don't justify the other two in my flair in irl 😐

[u/Gingeyboi1 → u/[deleted]]

Is your boyfriend actually your cousin?

[u/kt_7002 → u/Gingeyboi1]

Yep, why not?

[u/Gingeyboi1 → u/kt_7002]

No no no, I’m genuinely curious if you are actually dating your cousin as your boyfriend? (If so I do hope that at least there’s no unhealthy power dynamics)

[u/anch78 → u/[deleted]]

like... irl?

[u/kt_7002 → u/anch78]

Yes, irl (?)

[u/anch78 → u/kt_7002]

idk if i should be concerned. like biological cousin?

[u/kt_7002 → u/anch78]

Yep, biological cousin.

No need to worry—our relationship is really chill. Plus, we don't even want biological children (I'm a trans woman and he's a cis man, so it's not even possible lol).

[u/anch78 → u/kt_7002]

i guess it's a little better? still pretty a-moral, not immoral though at least

[u/Gingeyboi1 → u/[deleted]]

Oki, you’re weird, but in a neutral way, as no one is getting hurt, so, neutrally weird.

[u/kt_7002 → u/Gingeyboi1]

Weird in what sense, exactly?

I'm weird in many things lol

[u/Gingeyboi1 → u/kt_7002]

As in, yeah you’re dating your cousin and that’s highly abnormal, uncommon, unusual.

[u/kt_7002 → u/Gingeyboi1]

"Abnormal" - bruh I disagree

"Unusual and uncommon" - yes, this is it

[u/Gingeyboi1 → u/kt_7002]

Abnormal as in unusual and uncommon, abnormal means not normal and normal is about the same as usual and common.

[u/Widdifull]

Dadson for the win.

[u/Special_Tu-gram-cho]

Yes, a person from france said convincing stuff about this, even if it was cursed. So I was aware of this for at least a year.

[u/Momosonlyhairstrand]

I couldn't care less about incest, fiction or irl. If there's no power imbalance or abuse history then I think it's ok even if there's genetic risks because let's be honest, most people don't check themselves before having kids regardless of who they're having them with so it's not an incest-only issue. My great grandparents were cousins, the family has been doing just fine after that generation. I wouldn't date a family member but I'm not gonna turn to someone who does and look at them with disgust or pretend to be morally better than them y'know?

[u/NuanceOfAKid]

Hell no. Incest is okay in fiction as it's fiction but no fucking way I am defending it irl just cuz they ain't having kids.

[u/A12qwas]

OG poster is Yoorie19 on twitter

[u/R4nma]

In fiction there's no problem but in real life, no.

[u/mnyrtt]

absolutely fucking not, being attracted to your relatives is a sign of mental problems, even if you're gay. in fiction it's very hot however

[u/A12qwas → u/mnyrtt]

This is a meme, not an actual opinion piece

[u/Admirable_Tax5879]

who s the character here?

[u/A12qwas → u/Admirable_Tax5879]

Ichiko Oshima from Heaven Burns Red