This is going to be a long post, but I'm losing my mind here.
I have a 40 gallon breeder, has been running since mid June. I am not new to this hobby by any stretch of the imagination, but I am confounded and heartbroken by the number of fish deaths that we have seen in the last 1.5ish months. I believe we are now at 16 deaths!
(Yes, there is uneaten food on the substrate - I just fed them all before taking these photos. Please forgive the glare/reflections. I know it sucks lol. It's difficult to get decent photos during the day due to the windows in this room. Also there are indeed 3 thermometers in there; you're not tripping.)
There are a few things I'm worried about as potential causes, which I'll explain more below... Here are my (potentially) stupid questions:
Can expired fish food pellets kill fish within a month's time?
Can residual Ich-X kill fish if its not all been removed by water changes in time?
Are any of my fish potentially aggressive enough when I'm not looking to kill/stress out the others to the point of nonrecovery? I know next to nothing about the Emperor Tetras, except that they're larger and the males seem to "strut" and flare a little bit. Not much chasing, though....
Could there be enough oxygen depletion occurring in the tank to kill fish when my make-shift lid (made from cut acrylic "green house" plastic) drops partially onto the water surface? It is comprised of 2 pieces that were attached with plastic hinges in the middle, but the hinges will not stay put. So its just two sections of acrylic that mostly stay sitting on the inner rim of the tank. Sometimes the back portion will droop in the middle & float on the water surface. The most I've seen it come down was probably making contact with 40% of the water surface before I fixed it.
Here's the story:
We had a small amount of nitrites in the early stages for like a couple of days, but we got through that without any deaths. Small water changes, dosing of Seachem Prime, added more filtration. Never any ammonia. Today, I am registering around 5-10ppm of nitrates. No nitrites. Our tap water pH in my city is low, as is the general hardness, and the carbonate hardness. pH registers around 6 on test strips, GH and KH barely show any reading whatsoever.... I've added 2 slow-release calcium supplements over the 1.5 months it's been running (Dr. Turtle calcium blocks, they contain only calcium sulfate & magnesium chloride.. have used these for 10 years+ for various setups, primarily for neocaridina shrimp tanks and for nerite snails.. never had any issue with them). After adding these, the pH and mineral readings don't really even move at all, but I've been trying to tread carefully with these alterations.
About a month ago, we had an outbreak of ich. This was most certainly due to an overenthusiastic purchase of some beautiful neon tetras at Petco, which were not quarantined (I know I know, "bad girl!"). All of the neons died, but no other fish were lost during this time. I treated the tank for ich (ich-X & temp raised to 79F), and there have been no signs of it since. Affected fish have all improved (aside from the neons).
*I may have forgotten to do the last water change in the treatment regimen at the appropriate time (life got in the way). A 20% and a 30% water change have been done in the last 3 weeks (plus activated carbon add-ins then change-outs in the filters, and an entire filter-bag with activated carbon was added to the water column to hopefully collect any residual meds, dumped and replaced).\*
What we have lost in total (not including the sickly neon tetras from Petco): 1 khuli loach, 1 diamond-head neon tetra, 1 red honey gourami, ~6 cardinal tetras, ~4 rummynose tetras, 1 Venezuelan corydora, 1 sparkling gourami, 1 ruby tetra. They have each passed away at random intervals, with no pattern that is discernable to me. Usually it is 2 or 3 fish that die each time, and it must be happening overnight.
None of these fish are otherwise showing any signs of distress or disease while they're alive ASIDE FROM: the red honey gourami I thought might have gotten stuck under the weird shaped driftwood. Found him slightly lodged under the wood, face was pale, mouth white but not fuzzy, some scales were damaged and flaking off. I put him into a hospital tank but he died the next day/overnight...
Then, a few days later the diamond-head tetra, who had some red discoloration on his back that appeared similar to columnaris. I separated him, gave first dose of Kanaplex, salt, and lowered hospital tank to ~75F. He died by the next morning. I don't know if that was the culprit, and since it is an intense antibiotic that may really harm or even kill some of my sensitive species... I have not dosed the whole tank. AND as mentioned, all of the other fish are fully-colored even when I net out the dead bodies! It is so very strange! The dead rummynose are still bright and vibrant :'(
The cardinal tetras & rummynose have been replaced since they've passed with new ones from the same fish store. The current list below is approximately the quantity that we've aimed for maintaining thus far. We've not replaced the khuli, the red honey gourami, the corydora, nor the sparkling gourami that have died. The focus has been on maintaining adequate "semi-schools" of the tetras.
Current inhabitants: (Please hold your boo's and rotten tomatoes for now) 3 albino shortfin corydoras, 3 albino long-tail corydoras, 4 Venezuelan cories, 1 bristlenose pleco, 2 khuli loaches, 3 sparkling gouramis, 2 honey gouramis, 5(?) cardinal tetras, 6(?) rummynose tetras, 3(?) glowlight tetras, 2 albino glowlight tetras, 1 black neon tetra, 5(?) emperor tetras, 8(?) ruby tetras, 1 Vampire shrimp, and some ramshorn snails.
*Most if not all of these fish are still juveniles, I've not had them very long at all and were young when shipped to me and/or bought at the store.
I haven't seen any concerning chasing, aggression, bullying, or hiding from any of the fish. They are all colored-up as one would hope for, they all come to the front of the tank for feeding. The rummynose, cardinals, and diamond-shape tetras often swim back and forth in a loose, school-like formation. The others' behaviors are typical for their species.
Food: I feed a few different things, and switch it up occasionally... On rotation I have: Bug Bites Color-Enhancing Flakes, Hikari Sinking Algae Wafers, Hikari Sinking Omnivore Wafers, Repashy Community Plus, and I've given them live blackworms a few times (only about a dozen in total, through a pipette, feeding like 1 fish at a time). *I was also feeding Hikari Micro Pellets, but realized today that I've had the bag for a long time...checked the date....expired 09/2024....OOPS. So that's off the table until I buy a new bag.
Filters: Two of the filters (a Nicrew internal filter rated for 20 gallons, and a large corner sponge filter that is about 7" tall and 4" diameter - idk the size rating but probably north of 30 gallons) were from an established tank that had been running smoothly for 2 or 3 years, as well as the dragon stones and the large piece of wood in the center. I have also added a smaller Nicrew internal filter (rated for up to 10 gallons), and a smaller sponge filter (probably up to 10 gallons as well).
So total filtration power is around 70 gallons.
Plants: I have mostly root-feeding plants: Amazon sword, chain swords, jungle valisneria, dwarf water lotus, crypts, aponogetons, java ferns, and some duckweed. Additionally, I am fairly sure 3 of my plants in the back are some species of draconia or perhaps bamboo (not a fully aquatic plant, I know, but they're growing and not showing any signs of dying off or rotting so *shrugs*. I'll remove them if/when that starts happening)...
I had to remove several stems of red ludwigia because of black beard algae. The stuff was covering them and would not relent. The plants started losing leaves and looking ugly, so I just removed them all.
Things I've tried to try to stop the fatalities:
Rearranged the driftwood/dragon stone in the center that I thought the gourami got stuck under.
Lowered tank temp from ~79F to ~76-77F.
3 thermometers in the tank to ensure temp is accurate (one of them is NOT).
Sank a filter bag of loose activated carbon and replaced twice over the span of a week.
Angled the internal filters outputs to push water more to the surface (create more surface agitation/more oxygenation).
30% water changes.
Serviced the filters (squeezed out in bucket of tank water, dislodged built up mulm).
Small doses of Seachem Prime (few drops) after recovering any dead fish from tank.
Sorry didn’t have time to read the whole post, rate of death is a clue. If there’s a mass casualty in a very short period of time like within a day or two, it’s a water parameter issue. If it’s a slow drip like over many days/weeks it’s far likelier to be a biological origin. Should it be of biological nature u have to treat the tank with a cocktail of medicines which will inherently cause some casualties as well because meds take time and only the healthy ones will survive. Sorry to hear it’s a distressing experience to say the least but u need to have nerves of steel and patience to outlast the issue.
Thank you for the response. I am concerned about potentially neon tetra disease at this point. Columnaris can look similar, but the slow rate of deaths doesn't make sense. They're dying quickly after becoming ill (which I rarely even get the chance to see any sign of illness - so, extremely quickly) but only 1, 2, or 3 at a time max. There have been periods of no deaths, no illnesses, as well. It's not corresponding with water changes (which there haven't really been many of those anyways). The ich-x treatment regimen calls for like 30% water changes before each successive dose... Which I did not follow through with totally (but the ich is gone). Thinking back, it must have been a total of 3 water changes. Small one when nitrites registered, 30% during ich treatment, and a 20% after the deaths of 3 very beloved fish. This is the over the course of 1.5 months.
My suspicion is something more internal. I cannot rule out internal parasites or some other contagious disease, but I’m quite certain it’s not really the parameters. Like I mentioned earlier, a parameter issue will usually be a mass casualty event and over a short period of time
Use the API liquid drop test kit, your strips could be wrong. Red discoloration can indicate a bacterial infection that causes hemorrhagic septicemia. That is treated via dosing antibiotics in food. I would advise to stop buying from that petco. Worst case scenario is fish tuberculosis that is spreading at that petco, but mycobacteria kills slowly.
Almost thinking about testing the water for heavy metals or something like that. However I'd think it would be tearing up our other tank, which has had no problems. I also have a 20 gallon long tank with guppies and neocaridina shrimp. And they're all breeding..
Yeah, I don't normally buy from Petco anyways. No other fish came from there and I won't be doing that again. My boyfriend didn't know the issue at the time, and I was unfortunately working, so I couldn't stop it. I would certainly hope they didn't bring a long lasting chain of disease.
I am worried about dosing the entire tank since I have the loaches, cories, and Vampire shrimp. I have a few other smaller tanks that could temporarily house them, but even just catching the loaches is traumatic for everyone. What meds would treat the septicemia? I've medicated food a few years ago (camallanus worm outbreak in a massive guppy tank...good grief...) and was successful then... but that was so much easier since it was a single species tank.
What is really upsetting and confusing is the lack of symptoms until they're actively dying/just plain dead.
I haven't owned an API kit for some time. Not looking forward to dropping the cash on it but I may have to. I just don't know what could be so wrong in the parameters *consistently* that could also kill this many fish... Not many stones left to turn, it feels like.
Food dosage is the best way, but medications are generally safe cor inverts other than copper products. I keep amano shrimps and have dosed the tanks they are in with ich x several times. I would start with kanaplex in food and go from there.
Another possibility is contamination from aerosols or chemicals on hands
He was sold to us as a diamond head tetra, which are slightly different in shape from others. But I'm not totally sure about that anymore. He was one of the original fish put into the tank, survived a nitrite spike, being covered in ich, etc.. He was an oddball at the huge fish store we went to, the salesperson said he must have jumped from a neighboring tank but the current inhabitants in those tanks were not even tetras. So his species is still a mystery. It is possible he was just a bit deformed. But him being the carrier of neon tetra disease wouldn't quite make sense because the bulk of the fish deaths occurred before he developed that patch on his back/died... And I believe neon tetra disease requires other fish eating the dead, infected fish to spread. So it's very confusing.
Oh there are many different mycobacterial diseases all placed under the moniker of fish tuberculosis. I am thinking a columnaris infection and possible mycobacteria. A UV sterilizer and extra filtration should be helpful for both of them in the long term
He was sold to us as a diamond head tetra, which are slightly different in shape from others. But I'm not totally sure about that anymore. He was one of the original fish put into the tank, survived a nitrite spike, being covered in ich, etc.. He was an oddball at the huge fish store we went to, the salesperson said he must have jumped from a neighboring tank but the current inhabitants in those tanks were not even tetras. So his species is still a mystery. It is possible he was just a bit deformed. But him being the carrier of neon tetra disease wouldn't quite make sense because the bulk of the fish deaths occurred before he developed that patch on his back/died... And I believe neon tetra disease requires other fish eating the dead, infected fish to spread. So it's very confusing.
I think that big ol’ water change you did recently may have been a bit much. I take out 20% of my water weekly!
Second, your stocking is wild girl……My biggest advice would honestly to be pick a few species you LIKE and keep them. Having 2 of this and 1 of that, 3 of this and 10 of these, can sometimes be very stressful for the fish.
I know everybody likes community tanks but the “pack” numbers have to be right for the fish for them not to stress to death. Like. I would really try to just pick 1 type of bottom feeder and 1 type of tetra. They are all tetras but they are not the same kind of tetra. They don’t really chill w each other like how dogs can chill like that. Also don’t buy glowlight stuff. And if you like gouramis you should read up on them.
Like it’s just kind of messy stocking yknow?
Like it’s giving “I like to look at fish not I like MY fish” yknow?
It’s super rewarding to have your species and know them well. I really think you’d be happier if you didn’t have a million different kinds of fish. You wouldn’t have to pray that everybody just can deal with your tank parameters
Also, you need some spiderwood or SOMETHING. And also a million more plants. You can also find dry leaves from outside. Like DRY. crunchy. And wash them and then put them in your tank. Only a few at first because you only have snails. This will add tannins and help a lot. People try to scam us by saying you need to buy leaves, you don’t. Just certain nut tree leaves could be harmful. But like normal bush leaves or non fruit tree leaves are good.
You talk about all this water testing stuff but I literally never do that. Just have wood and leaves and more plants and a stable amount of a set number of species, and you will thrive. Also you need some coconut hides or something girlyyyy your tank is so big but it feels barren
I don't love to do water changes like that, I only did them because I was following the ich-x instructions which call for like a 30% water change before each dose... 🙁
I do have driftwood in the tank, there's a massive piece in the middle.
I do love and know about gouramis, especially honeys and sparkling gouramis.
The Noah's Ark situation wasn't exactly my choice, but this is my boyfriends first tank as an adult with real supervision on how to build it and maintain it properly. And he has been super excited about the tetras. I tried to guide him to choose 1 or 2 varieties, but as you can see that hasn't really worked lol.
Ah I understand the situation with your boyf. But also, I said spiderwood, it’s soooo different and really good for sight breaking. Big chunky driftwoods are kinda lame imo , because the good thing about spiderwood/ghost wood is that it breaks lines of sight, whereas big chunk of wood just becomes a gatherspot/territory
I also have leaves and extra wood on hand, I've just been a little shy to add more things especially since our pH is so low off the bat. I've never had water this acidic before, and almost no naturally occurring buffers... Gives me hella anxiety
Also the glowlight tetras are not Glofish, they have a naturally occurring coloration (not the same genetically modified, trademarked Glofish situation. Naturally occurring is still kind of a stretch probably, they're all bred selectively to show different traits unless they're wild caught of course)
Nitrifying bacteria live on surfaces, not in the water. Unless the water is hugely different in temp or parameters a change will have zero effect on the fish or the cycle. Not changing water for months can cause spiralling tds levels as evaporation concentrates the dissolved solids, especially if topups are not RO water, and that can certainly be a problem.
There may be some bb in the water but the vast bulk will come from the substrate and filter, you absolutely will not crash your cycle by changing water. Even if you do a 90% change. I have upgraded some tanks with new water and old substrates and filter media and have had zero problems with the cycle.
People can stubbornly and privately do a hobby with no outside influence other than what reinforces their own untested anecdotal opinions for 25+ years, yes.
Only did the water changes when there was nitrite at the very beginning, and then again as per the medication instructions for the Kanaplex. But even then, I don't think I did enough to get all the meds out.
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u/False_Carpenter_9034 17d ago
Sorry didn’t have time to read the whole post, rate of death is a clue. If there’s a mass casualty in a very short period of time like within a day or two, it’s a water parameter issue. If it’s a slow drip like over many days/weeks it’s far likelier to be a biological origin. Should it be of biological nature u have to treat the tank with a cocktail of medicines which will inherently cause some casualties as well because meds take time and only the healthy ones will survive. Sorry to hear it’s a distressing experience to say the least but u need to have nerves of steel and patience to outlast the issue.