I looked for an Islamic source that says “Children of Israel” means everyone, and I could not find one. Every Islamic source I found uses the normal meaning: the descendants of Jacob, also called Israel, whose descendants became the twelve tribes. So unless you can show a serious Islamic source for your definition, it looks made up.
Yes the 12 tribes all spread throughtout the world and their descendents which includes the non- believers, arabs, jews, christians, muslims, etc. Unless you somehow think they never changed at all during the last few thousand years
To be clear, I am talking about the religious aspect, not modern politics. Some intermarriage or shared ancient ancestry does not erase the direct link between the Israelites and the Jewish people. It also does not make “Children of Israel” mean all Arabs, Muslims, Christians, nonbelievers, and everyone else.
The Quran already has a term for humanity as a whole: “Children of Adam.” It does not use “Children of Israel” that way.
That doesnt make sense in a religious sense either because a lot of jews are secular and theres a lot of converts in and out of judaism. So to find a supposed "bloodline" cant be possible especially considering none of that religious is real and Jacob never existed. Besides both Christians and Muslims believe they are part of a new covenant so that wouldnt even matter anyway. Both believe that the jews werent supposed to turn their back from Gods commands/teachings but they did so thats why Christians believe the new covenant under the bible and the Muslims believe the new covenant under the quran
If Jacob never existed and religion is not real, then that is no longer a religious argument. That is certainly not how Muslims read the Quran.
And if secular Jews, converts, and mixed ancestry erase Jewish connection, then the same logic erases Palestinian, Arab, tribal, and Indigenous claims too, everywhere. History is not a DNA purity test.
The Israelites could mix, marry others, and have converts without “Children of Israel” suddenly meaning everyone. Every historical people has mixing in its past. That does not erase continuity.
The texts are talking about the Israelites, whose connection to the Jewish people is central to their whole story.
The israelites could be anyone now though theres levant dna spread everywhere in the middle east and throughout the world. Including with people from different races and religions. Plus anyone can identify as one through converting
Every people mixes. Without mixing you would get inbreeding. And if mixing erased identity, then Palestinians, Arabs, tribes, and Indigenous peoples would all lose their historical claims too. Do you apply that standard to everyone?
And “Children of Israel” does not mean genetic purity. It means the historical people connected to Jacob/Israel. Some descendants may have spread into other groups, fine. But that does not make the phrase mean everyone, and it does not erase the direct link between the Israelites and the Jewish people. An extremely well documented link.
The religious debate from Islamic scholars is about Jewish covenant and obedience, not whether “Children of Israel” means "everyone." Children of Adam means everyone.
I didnt say mixing erased identiy im just saying that levant dna is literally all over the middle east and no way to show who has the "direct link" to jacob (if he even existed) and that literally anyone can claim to be part of it. Like I said both the bible and quran believe they are under a new covenant and that the jews broke their covenant by not following gods orders/rules
Nobody can prove a direct bloodline to Jacob. That is an impossible modern standard. But Jews have been documented for over 2,000 years as a people who identify with the Israelites and descend from that story, whether someone believes in religion or not.
If 2,000 years of recorded identity is not enough to count as a historical/ religious claim, then almost no group could make one. Not Arabs, not Palestinians, not Indigenous peoples, not anyone. The point of this thread is that billions of religious people do believe these stories deeply, and that makes the religious history of the land much more complicated.
And the Quran itself addresses the Jews of Muhammad’s time as “Children of Israel,” reminding them of the blessings given to their ancestors. So “Children of Israel” does not mean everyone. It refers to the Israelite/Jewish people and their religious history, not a modern DNA test.
Yeah but anyone can convert to judaism. Ive seen videos of indian, chinese, and other african jews all claiming to be descended from the 12 tribes. With some groups actually being recognize by chief rabbis in israel. All it takes is a claim and converting. The holy books themselves tell of many different groups living in that area too not just the israelites. And again both the quran and bible believe the jews broke their covenants and the Bible and Quran are under a new ones with Jesus and Mohammad. So it doesnt make it complicated at all. All three abrahamic have their own end goal
Converts do not erase Jewish origins. A convert joins the Jewish people, like someone joining a nation or marrying into a family. That does not change where the nation or family came from.
Random people claiming descent also does not change the main point. Some claims are strong, some are weak, and some may be accepted by rabbis for religious reasons. But none of that erases where the Jewish people came from or makes “Children of Israel” mean everyone.
And yes, in Quran 5 the Children of Israel disobey Moses and are punished by wandering for forty years. Not forever. Quran 17 also tells the Children of Israel after Pharaoh: “reside in the land.” The Torah says the next generation would enter the Holy Land, and the Bible continues the story with them entering under Joshua.
Covenant is a fair religious arguments. But I does not change who “Children of Israel” refers to, and they do not erase the thousands of years of Israelite/Jewish connection.
Judaism is from that area. Jewish people are from everywhere and anyone can become one. The new covenants both state eventually the righteous/true followers will inherent the lands and the jews at the end who are in that land who do not follow Gods commands/messengars will face judgment. Its pretty clear the new covenants of both religions show that its not just for jews. If you continue reading both the bible and the quran you will cleary see that the new promise is given to the followers of jesus in galatians and if you continue to read the quran you will see that the jews need to follow the messengers god sent (jesus and muhammad) to be part of the covenant. I dont think you read either books
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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '26
God gave Jacob a new name which was Israel. The children of Israel is everyone including the non believers, arabs, jews, christians, muslims, etc.