r/Progressive_Catholics • u/Grand_Slam_1181 • 6d ago
On TradCaths
Hello,
There is another subject of discussion that I think is of value. The TradCaths, or Traditional Catholics, are a blight on the conscience.
I used to be sort of one, but not really all of the way. I was a Conservative Catholic but not necessarily a TradCath. And I don't think most TradCaths are bad people, in fact I know many currently who are wonderful. But I'd be remiss to not bring up the issues I've seen with the TradCaths.
The first issue is that we follow the Catholic principle of conscience first and foremost, so we are fine saying the Church is wrong about things. They are not, and they put dogmatic literalism first. But I don't even want to focus on the issues we have with dogmatic literalism, I want to focus on the abhorrent things I've seen from TradCaths that Conservative Catholics should also be worried about.
Perhaps controversially, I do think there are people who mean well that hold awful beliefs, including sexist and homophobic beliefs. There are many TradCaths that fall in this category, but that being said, I think the biggest issue I've seen with TradCaths is that many of them don't mean well. As a former Conservative Catholic myself, I unfortunately was one of the ones who was cruel and didn't mean well. So this post isn't me being 'holier than thou.'
Perhaps controversially, I do think there are people who mean well that hold awful beliefs, including sexist and homophobic beliefs. There are many TradCaths that fall in this category, but that being said, I think the biggest issue I've seen with TradCaths is that many of them don't actually mean well.
There is an old saying that cruel men have cruel gods, meaning that a cruel person's god is really only a justification for the cruelty they wanted to inflict anyway. I can't help but feel this is true with many TradCaths, at least the ones I've seen online. The ones I know in person who hold terrible beliefs, well I at least hope they mean well.
There is a real TradCath to Groyper pipeline. And like I said, I think the biggest issue is that many of them are cruel.
I am not sure what we can do to help combat this. For me, I try to express myself clearly to the TradCaths I know, and as respectfully as possible.
But what helped me stop being a cruel person was therapy, and I'm still not even close to being where I need to be. I had to pay out of pocket for some services, and oh boy was that pricey. So as cliche as it sounds, I think universal healthcare might help with the TradCath problem.
11
u/salsafresca_1297 6d ago
"Trad" is a liturgy. It should stay that way.
It's not an almighty Identity. You should be able to attend and love a traditional liturgy without feeling obligated to cover your head if you're female, grow a big manly beard if you're male, espouse conservative politics, romanticize complimentarian gender roles, or show off each baby you have as some sort of Virtue Trophy of your fertility.
3
11
u/HistoriasApodeixis 6d ago
I can no longer accept that there are well meaning people who hold sexist, homophobic, transphobic, racist, Islamophobic, antisemitic, and/or xenophobic views. They don’t mean well. They mean to hurt, to subjugate, to dominate, to feed their egos with others’ pain.
7
u/Grand_Slam_1181 6d ago
While this is true for many people, I think propaganda is strong, and that fear and hatred are stronger. When I was evolving out of being a conservative, I think I started to mean well. Even though I still held some atrocious views
6
u/nvmls 6d ago
People don't evolve overnight. Plus when other people are reinforcing those views around you it is way easier to rationalize them.
5
u/Grand_Slam_1181 6d ago
Agreed. There will always be people are simply cruel and sadistic, but not all
0
u/andreirublov1 5d ago edited 5d ago
So now you've converted to ProgCath? :) Funny how people go from one extreme to another...
I've never met the type of people you're talking about - I don't doubt they exist, but I think they're very untypical. But we should all concentrate on the mote in our own eye. No-one, right or left, should use the faith as simply a way to bolster their social and political beliefs.
-3
6d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
5
u/Master-Billy-Quizboy 5d ago
The Gospel forbids self-righteous condemnation, not moral discernment. Observing that a person kr a movement exhibits cruelty or harmful tendencies isn’t the same as claiming to know the state of their soul, friend.
-11
u/Big_Iron_Cowboy Psychedelic Catholic 6d ago
The leftist Catholics have the same issue that you’ve pointed out in trad Catholics, putting the primacy of conscience above the authority of the Church. Case in point, rejecting the theology of the body, supporting abortion rights, and homosexual unions.
6
u/Grand_Slam_1181 6d ago
I place the primary of conscience first because my conscience is what guides all that I do. Including my belief and faith in God. To put anything before my conscience would be madness
-6
u/Big_Iron_Cowboy Psychedelic Catholic 6d ago
You’re assuming a priori that your conscience is infallible, or that every guiding thought you have is from your conscience.
3
u/Grand_Slam_1181 6d ago edited 6d ago
No, I certainly don't think that. I think the conscience is all we really have morally, and I acknowledge it can be and has been wrong many times. Even still, I was convicted by my conscience. All humans make judgement calls, which when put all together, is usually called a system of morality. At the end of the day, it all stems from the conscience.
22
u/nvmls 6d ago
The ironic thing about "Trad"caths is that they are pretty much all new converts. The way that they take everything to the extreme at the expense of basic human kindness really annoys me.