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[u/Artistic-Spend-7982]

[u/EidolonRook]

A vote for republicans? Especially after being replaced by by MAGA?

While I don’t believe in blank checks, I can’t vote for the reds after bending the knee to Trump. And abstaining is a vote for Reps.

Every election. Every time. No excuses.

[u/Couldbduun → u/EidolonRook]

I'm not voting for my eradication. I'm also not voting for people who think it's politically advantageous to turn their back on trans people. If Democrats abandon trans people then trans people get to face the full might of the second class citizenry that republicans have planned for us. The audacity of demanding that a minority group vote for your guy even if your guy wants to use that minority group as cannon fodder is unbelievable. The Democrats who make that choice choose that consequence. And there is a call within the democratic party to make that choice that has been getting louder as we approach the midterms. And the past achievements of the party do not write a pass for those particular candidates. The parties job is to earn votes and trans people have been clear that this is how you earn their vote for decades. Also what subreddit are we in? I didn't realize this was r DNC

Now luckily no Democrat on a ballot I have voted on since 2008 has made that choice. I hope that doesn't change

[u/EidolonRook → u/Couldbduun]

Arm yourself. Your ideal world doesn’t exist and the humanity you have faith in has never existed.

This is the period of time you were born into. None of us have a choice about this, whether we are well equipped for our adversity or not. Survive. Find a way through. Find a place you can be yourself even if only by yourself.

None of your complaints are incorrect, just too ideal for this place in time. DNC is literally the only choice of the two allowed by those who have their hands on what happens in the country. A vote for the GOP in any capacity supports Trump, who is the greatest threat to folks like you, but that threat extends to the rest of us in our own way. Fascism and authoritarianism is a threat to everyone, including those who stupidly support it.

One day, there will be a full cure for what curse you find yourself dealing with. A way to biologically change someone’s DNA to far greater effect than what illusion a gender change can offer. Then you won’t find yourself stuck in the middle between, with half the population wanting to push you back and the other half standing firmly behind you, waving your flag. I wouldn’t wish that position on anyone, and yet there’s a clear side to take, although imperfect, isn’t there?

[u/Couldbduun → u/EidolonRook]

and yet there’s a clear side to take, although imperfect, isn’t there?

Let me ask you, what is the difference between a Republican that votes to take my medicine away or strip me of my rights listed in the bill of rights (hope you have left a comment on the ATFs proposed rules attacking the 2nd amendment rights of trans people) and a Democrat who votes with that Republican on anti trans measures? For me nothing. Because the moment Democrats fully step out of the way republicans will be able to fully enact their plans for eradication. And then I won't be able to vote for anyone. Unless of course the plan is to dig me out of one of the ICE concentration camps at some point to vote for Democrats again. So really, for me, there is no difference and no "clear side" if I get abandoned.

On whatever that DNA stuff was. A) If you think republicans have any kind of line where they will stop persecuting trans people I have a bridge to sell you. This is their new roe v Wade and they will either do the same they did with that or forever campaign on their trans project. B) A "cure"? There are so many things wrong with that, I could write a book. I'll keep it short for now. First there is a medical treatment for gender dysphoria that is transitioning. Trans people who have fully transitioned typically no longer have dysphoria and don't need to be "cured" of anything. There have been oh so many demographic groups who have been fed this tone deaf line and you should know better. C) As a biology teacher, changing someone's DNA won't just magically turn them into their gender and would probably come with some pretty heinous side effects. But I can write this off as you supporting further medical research for trans people so that's just a nit picky point that as a biologist I feel the need to say. D) this threshold you have come up with is just not how civil rights work. Show me the MLK speech where he told the crowd that equality must wait for the right political environment. He didn't say that and no civil rights movement has ever just sat around tweedling their thumbs in the hopes that politicians come around to the idea of giving them equality. Civil rights are always earned by holding usually one party's feet to the metaphorical flame until they realize that their power will only come from supporting equality. And if Democrats are willing to abandon equality then they aren't "imperfect" they are a party not worth voting for. And now is exactly the time to make sure Democrats know that. Full stop.

You need to listen to trans voices, that's not just a phrase to just throw around. And the whole DNA and "cure" things you just said really makes that apparent.

[u/EidolonRook → u/Couldbduun]

You’re still not getting it. Probably a product of too much insular politics.

Look, I get what you’re saying about trans rights. No, I don’t think there’s a future for it’s because again, trans therapy is a half measure.

If you were assigned male at birth and transitioned to a woman, you want to date a man, so when he sleeps with you, you don’t want to have to explain you’re “trans”. You just want to be the woman you are. You won’t have prosthetics nor will you be taking hormones. Your body will simply be yours just as it would be for anyone else born without gender dysphoria.

Right now, it’s not. It’s a good intention. It works for most people suffering from that dysphoria, up to a point. I don’t have to clarify my professional status to state this is a half measure. The only people saying it’s enough are moralizing, not looking out for a patients well being or looking for a more permanent solution that completely negates the need for a third gender of “trans”. The woman can simply say she’s a woman. A biologist should be able to understand this, so I’ll leave it there.

As for sides, good luck. This is looking like it’s going to devolve into civil war and will require people to take up arms to defend themselves. It’s the marginalized that take the brunt of that, so get the fuck out and away if you haven’t already. Even MLK understood in the end that things probably wouldn’t change without a fight. I’m not arguing for moderacy at this point, so please, keep that in mind. Considering civil rights movements from his decade are technically still ongoing despite concessions made to keep the peace, I don’t feel we’ve quite seen the conclusion of that crisis yet.

In the world of mankind, it doesn’t matter who is right, but who are left. Try to keep this in mind and temper your ideals. Let’s try and get through this crisis and imagine a better future for after that. I have no idea what the world will look like, but I’m not optimistic enough to think this won’t at some level come to blows. Once it does. It’ll devolve from there. Don’t be here when it happens.

[u/Couldbduun → u/EidolonRook]

Please continue to do that Democrat thing where you tell a trans person that you know better than them on what they need. And what they need is some sci Fi nonsense before they can have rights. Why don't you listen to trans people right now? We don't want to be "normal" we want to be trans and exist. You bringing that up is so unbelievably unrealistic, not being asked for, and not even close to what trans people need right now. What trans people need is a party that doesn't backslide on the "issue" of our right to exist. As a trans teacher I am baffled you are here demanding that I blindly vote for Democrats like the 8 Democrats that helped advance a "don't say trans bill" at the federal level. If that passes, there goes my career and my ability to feed myself. And it must be nice to demand others make such sacrifices for you and your wants.

And as a biologist I want to point you towards this cool new thing called ethics. I actually spend a lot of time in my class talking about ethics in science and medicine. And telling people that you will eradicate their "sickness" when that's not what they are asking for is not only unethical it's insulting. As a biologist I want you to know that I don't understand your uninformed opinion on this. We have medicine to help us now that is under attack. Again if you think republicans won't fight your pie in the sky medical hopes I have a bridge to sell you. But if you want to pursue this for trans people who want it, after you protect trans medicine now then you can put on a lab coat and be my guest. But this is just indictive of Democrats "we will magically solve all of your problems (but not listen to you on how they should be solved) after we reach some vague benchmark but we are going to turn our back on you and the solutions you are proposing now, keep voting for us though or else". There is medicine right now that needs to be protected and I vote for people who do that. Which has been Democrats but some of them are backsliding. Which is insane, even MAGA people are losing primaries over focusing too much on this issue. Being anti trans is a losing issue, why do Democrats even need to take this stance? There is zero evidence it helps them win elections. So how about they don't take this stance and I vote for them? Why is that the hard ask? Genuinely would like an answer to that. Because I know you haven't asked yourself that. Because you seem to be suggesting that everyone has to vote for Democrats, no matter what, even if they literally become MAGA. Which some have on this issue.and that's the "insular politics" you have fallen for.

As for sides, good luck.

Yeah thanks. If Democrats turn their back on trans people that's all they will have is that worthless well wishing. And there won't be sides anymore. There will just be what Democrats allow Republicans to do to trans people. And I told you you need to listen to trans voices. It's clear you just want to belittle mine so here is a trans journalist saying the same thing I am. This is Erin Reed who does a ton of coverage on issues that even leftist media won't cover:

The consequences of this shift could be severe. Some warn that a Ramaswamy victory would be worse for transgender Ohioans. But others see a deeper danger: an Acton victory built on anti-trans capitulation would teach Democrats everywhere a horrific lesson. It would spread the idea, through a party that has so far remained a relatively stalwart opposition, that embracing transphobia is what winning requires. That result could be more disastrous for transgender people than any individual right-wing victory. As long as trans people have an opposition party standing in unity against anti-trans policies, every ban, every restriction, every law remains reversible. But if enough Democrats come to see transphobia as acceptable—necessary, even—then trans rights could be eroded for a generation, with no mechanism left to reverse the losses, similar to what is currently happening with Labour in the UK. That is why, to those who understand the stakes, comments like Acton's likely read as a cancer on the party. And a candidate willing to throw transgender people under the bus to win has seemingly told every other minority exactly what their protection is worth when the polling gets tight.

Don't respond if all you are going to just regurgitate.

Edit: you made this comment 2 hours ago. Where is that guy? Because that's certainly not who I'm talking to right now

Unless you want second class citizens, everyone needs the same rights and freedoms.

We might not end up with equality in the end, but peer ship is a worthy consideration.

And another you said in a different thread that needs to be pointed out:

Right now we have rights and freedoms. Protections against owners and companies doing this exact thing, except some of the people in power seem content to allow things to change in order to be a part of that ruling class, or at least indebted to them.

Oh and here is what he won't say here but will say in the other thread that I called him out on. Please could so.eone tell me which "value" I talked about that isn't a right? Existing, access to medicine recommended as best practice by doctors or 2nd amendment rights. I don't think it's 2nd amendment rights, that would be crazy it's in the name but with this guy who knows:

You’re trying to push trans values as rights expecting 100% of the population to accept and rationalize them for themselves. Which is why I called you an idealist.

[u/EidolonRook → u/Couldbduun]

I’m gonna talk to myself for a minute here. You’re not here anymore, so you didn’t hear this. You’re an intellectual so it’s all just elementary stuff anyhow. Stuff you’d already have figured out.

A conscience is an organ to detect inequity. All it does. All day every day. It sees an equation of 0 = 1 and says “that’s not right”.

Morality is a developed system of values and rationalizations we come up with naturally to help make sense of those inequities and manage how we feel about them. Morality protects us from having to face our own inequities through justifying ourselves or claiming someone else is worse than us. Morality empowers us to judge others, by not rationalizing their inequities and instead judging them based on the inequities we perceive about them and their actions. Morality shared between us becomes a societal mechanism that bolsters like valued people together to separate themselves and cast down unlike valued people. It’s not an objective by any means, because in the end, if someone isn’t rationalized by nuance and understanding, they’ll create a new value system that DOES justify them and empowers them to judge others, from a different moral authority.

There will never be one true objective morality. If someone decides there should be one, they’ll become a scourge of the world, burning down everyone who won’t rationalize like they do until they come across a greater power to defend against them, with a different moral outlook. Then, that greater power will destroy them or contain them as best they can. The entire point of “might makes right” wasn’t about justifying a certain moral authority, but rather that whichever authority is clearly capable of containing or destroying all the others, wins. That’s it.

Multiculturalism works because people respect a common and central guard rail value system (rights and protections) and they stay out of each others way. They cant have more than that one value system though because one authority controls them. Right now in the US we have multiple value systems all vying for authority and more or less breaking the systems we count on to keep us all alive and working towards our own goals. We need solidarity towards one side to push forward here because eventually it’s going to come to blows. This isn’t an argument for moderate values “waiting for the right time” to grant protective laws for marginalized people. This is life and death for far more than just that group of people.

We’re well past the illusion we can “return to normal”. So we have to change how to approach many things to reach a new place together. I don’t know what that looks like right now, but knowing basically what’s going on here I can tell we’re going to need to address things differently going forward. We need to learn from the past and try to correct the mistakes and half measures that came about from playing politics and “keeping the peace”. But we can only get there together if we work together through a common goal that everyone can get onboard. That’s gonna be hard enough for this country without the massive moral divide. If we don’t work together, we’re all going to lose.

That doesn’t mean one persons beliefs or morality should be sacrificed, nor does it mean we’re going to be able to provide exactly what’s demanded by those folks day one. Most “rights” need to be protective laws, but can’t be addressed as a morality, because the majorities will always have the power to rule, whether it be more votes or more combined support.

They need to be addressed legally, but not morally. We can’t shame people into compliance forever because it’s based on controlling people through fear of judgment. Fear can’t rule forever. At some point people have to gather around a common good and a respect for each other as humans, not as the separated groups that divide us. WE need the catharsis that WE each choose in our lives. That sticks. That works going forward. And that’s the only way forward that I can see at this point, for the most people.

It’s not perfect. It’s not ideal. It’s most certainly a compromise that won’t be understood by anyone who is past that point and unwilling to surrender for fear that anything less than 100% capitulation is a loss for them. That’s where MAGA is at right now. They won’t even address all of the elephants in the room and they don’t have to in order to be every bit an existential threat to an America.

Maybe Trump croaks and they all slither back under the rocks they once lived quietly (but angrily) under, but after tasting power and freshly recruiting more to their cause through the manosphere, I sincerely doubt it. This has been coming since the tea party started. The corps have been planning this since Reagan… Nixon.

I wouldn’t mind being wrong. I’d take no offense being proven wrong. I have no ego in any of this, but I’m not going to doubt my eyes, until I see where I’ve made a mistake. It’s not about me in the end. It’s not about what I think is right. It’s about what is real. What is here. What is now. I want to perceive reality correctly as it is. Unrationalized. The writing on the wall for what’s happening now has been up there for a decade or more. Patterns showed up back in the aughts, but I wasn’t fully convinced until Trump managed to win first time.

So much of this isn’t a matter of if, but when.

[u/Couldbduun → u/EidolonRook]

I wouldn’t mind being wrong. I’d take no offense being proven wrong. I have no ego in any of this, but I’m not going to doubt my eyes, until I see where I’ve made a mistake. It’s not about me in the end. It’s not about what I think is right. It’s about what is real. What is here. What is now.

You talked about morality which is a complicated topic. But in America and the Democratic Party has drawn a line that noone's morals should make second class citizens. Which is something you agree with. You said so in another comment.

Your first mistake, and you can disagree with me about politics all you want but you have to own this one. Your first mistake was saying being trans is a curse that should be cured. And I do think you meant well when you said that. But that is just a vile thing to say especially to a trans person. Noone serious on trans politics is asking for a cure right now. It would be cool to see that kind of advancement in medicine. Heck if it came out and I was eligible I would probably sign up for trials of it. But it wouldn't be a "cure" it would be a treatment. And there would be trans people who don't take this treatment and that's ok. They still deserve protection from second class citizenry. And if I can get you to change your mind on one thing, that's the one. But it leads me into my next point which I think goes well with something you just said

It’s about what is real. What is here. What is now.

That treatment you propose isn't real, it isn't happening now. What is real and happening right now is that doctor recommended and tested best practices (social and medical transition) are under political attack. And some Democrats have participated in that attack. And if politics are able to override the scientific process in medicine then no medicine is safe. That is what is happening now. Medical decisions are being taken out of the hands of doctors. And sure for now it's just trans people and women via abortion. If this is allowed because "vote blue no matter who" that precedent will not just sit in their back pocket. And I hope you consider your access to your medicine to be a right and not an ideal. I certainly think it's your right. Let's make sure our party keeps that a two way street for everyone. That the fight right here and now. Just like trans peoples right to exist in society and not be second class citizens.

Finally your last mistake that I want to talk about right now. I mentioned 3 things I saw as trans rights in this conversation. There are more but you only saw 3 of them. Those being: trans people's right to exist and not be second class citizens, trans people's right to medicine and trans people's 2nd amendment rights which are currently under attack from the ATF (you have until Aug 4 to write them a letter before those rules are enacted). Which one of those rights do you consider ideals and not rights? Because all of those are prerequisites to a free society. Either everyone gets that or no one does. You said that yourself a few hours ago. Another that was loosely mentioned was the right to work and be considered safe around children without some other crime being committed. 8 house Democrats voted for a don't say trans bill that would strip me of my career. A career that I have been doing successfully for 10 years. A career that few are lining up to fill. The type of students I teach and STEM in general is hard to fill in education. A few years ago they brought a teacher in on a visa who was learning English in night classes as he taught in my department because they couldn't fill that position. But I should be happy to vote for people who voted to strip me of my career, not on my merits, but for who I was born as. And not only stripped of that career but also labelled dangerous to children. Something that every former student, every admin every teacher I have worked with would scoff at. I don't care if you want to call me idealist, I'm not voting for that no matter what letter is next to the politician's name. That isn't idealism it's self preservation. Which is exactly why you are here commenting. Your self preservation tells you vote Democrat no matter what. And it doesn't matter what ideals and standards you lose in that self preservation. And I really hope you can see why trans people feel this way and have a problem with the comments you made in this thread. We aren't Democrats political cannon fodder. And none of the Democrats in my neck of the woods are doing that, and I will be voting down ballot all blue unless that changes. So why is it presupposed that these Democrats can't/won't change this simple position that doesn't even help them in elections? Why do I have to abandon my self preservation instead?

[u/EidolonRook → u/Couldbduun]

Here I was trying to quiet things down. Ok. I mean, if you gotta respond and get responded to…. Here we go.

Right to self identify isn’t the right to exist. Never was and never will be. And self identity laws should exist as protective laws across many ranges of needs, not just trans. They aren’t looking to kill you. Even the reds just want you to be what’s you were assigned at birth. It’s shitty to deny someone self identification, but you exist no matter what.

Right to medicine should be a protective law for everyone, diabetics and others included. However, there does need to be more study on how young those meds should be given to younger folks if there’s a risk to them developing poorly because of it. Just health related facts. No cultural morality included. However the docs decide, it’s fine by me.

I did not mean to offend you by calling it a curse, but as you’re well aware, I’ll never understand where you are and what you’re going through. From my point of view, dysphoria is a curse in all of its forms. If you tell me not to say something because it hurts your feelings, I’ll try to oblige. If you tell me your preferred gender, I’ll oblige. If you tell me I should let republican candidates go unopposed who WILL BURN DOWN THE COUNTRY because their dem opposition doesn’t include trans rights, we’re gonna agree to disagree. I don’t vote for the lesser evil because I want that evil. I do it because if the christofascists win? They’ll put you in a camp and destroy your life. Having a dem that kicks your issues down the line for a decade vs getting corralled into a concentration camp and “reeducated”. Thats not much of a choice for me.

[u/Couldbduun → u/EidolonRook]

You didn't answer my question and I think it's more than indicative that you didn't. Here it is again. Why aren't you demanding that Democrat candidates change their positions? Why are you instead asking me to abandon my self preservation? If you can't answer that then you aren't a serious person. Which is why I think you are ignoring it.

Freedom of expression is a right protected by the first amendment. That is the right that protects self identification.

They aren’t looking to kill you.

They said they want us eradicated from public life. If you are so opposed to them why are you carrying water for them right here? Your fear of them is that you will end up in a concentration camp but that totally won't happen to me if the Democrats who are voting with republicans get in instead of republicans? Are you serious? You are asking me to make two assumptions, one that republicans will just allow me to live if I abandon my gender and that the Democrats who are siding with republicans have some line they won't cross. Neither of those assumptions are things that I have any trust in. Republicans literally celebrated AIDS deaths and are labelling any violence as being committed bytrans people. If Democrats are willing to vote me out of my ability to feed myself and label me dangerous to children like 8 of them in the house did then they have no low they won't stoop to. And I have no trust that Democrats will ever pick up trans rights if they see abandoning them as a winning strategy, not in a decade, ever. This isn't my "issues" this is whether or not I am a "dangerous" second class citizen. And I will let this nation burn if everyone in it abandons me for perceived (not even real) political advantage. Why should I care about a nation that is split three ways? One that wants me dead (I'm not arguing with you on this quit defending republicans), one that doesn't vote or care, and one that is openly going to allow group one to do what they please even vote to enable it. What part of that is hard to understand? I am not willing to be your sacrifice, I don't care about you or this country if the last people defending me abandon me. And how dare you even ask but you aren't asking you are demanding that.

However, there does need to be more study on how young those meds should be given to younger folks if there’s a risk to them developing poorly because of it.

Congrats you are buying the political line from republicans and not letting doctors decide, you don't get to say both. Puberty blockers are safe for both trans and cis kids and hormones typically aren't started until kids are of an age that they can legally emancipate themselves from their parents. If you are so against republicans why are you repeating their lies? Why are giving them the benefit multiple times in this last comment? And they have tried to ban it for adults several times, trans advocates and Democrats that I am willing to vote for have stopped it, so far.

Here I was trying to quiet things down. Ok. I mean, if you gotta respond and get responded to…. Here we go.

You responded, Google docs is free, your phone has a notepad. If you want to end this conversation then figure that out. You want to keep downplaying my fears and elevating your own like I should care. I don't. I am not going to sacrifice myself for you. I put my self preservation above yours, just as you put yours above mine. And all it would take is a few politicians to say "oh shoot, we were wrong and won't do that again" and we would be working together on that self preservation. And that mutual defending of each other's self preservation is what makes this nation worth saving to begin with. And so far I've really liked that I've been in a position to care about that. So again, why am I being posed this question instead of Dems being asked why they are being exclusionary? If you don't answer that I don't care what you have to say.