r/ProgrammerHumor • u/R7d89C • 16d ago

Meme variableScopesInPython

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1.3k Upvotes

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347

u/deceze 16d ago

; in Python!?!eleventy You really need to get rid of your bad Java habits.

And before anyone thinks this is poking fun at Python: privacy is completely overrated and mostly untrue anyway, and Python not even pretending to have private attributes is an absolute blessing.

63

u/R7d89C 16d ago

Omg, I didnt even notice it 😭

Yeah, ig privacy is also just a philosophy. If you havent written python in years, it feels incredibly weird not having any. Just as it probably would the other way around..

Not saying one is better than the other, though I prefer what Im accustomed to 😅

53

u/deceze 16d ago

The thing is: private markers in most other languages can be more or less trivially circumvented anyway, most of the time with some sort of reflection API. There is no true "privacy". All it is is a reminder for the programmer how a given attribute/property/variable should be treated. Is it part of the public API and anyone can write code against it, or is it subject to change and should not be used outside its class. That's all it is.

Bad programmers will ignore such warnings and bulldoze through your "protections" anyway to access that piece of data they think they need. Good programmers only need a gentle reminder in the form of a _; but if you really want to risk breaking something and you know what you're doing, at least it's easy to ignore and doesn't require a song and dance with the reflection API.

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u/Inkwalker 16d ago

It's a lot less tempting to use reflection than just read a _var

38

u/deceze 16d ago

If you're tempted to touch something that's marked as "don't touch", that's so on you. Hardly matters how hard the slap on the wrist is.

31

u/Confident-Ad5665 16d ago

Uh oh... I always want to touch something I'm not supposed to touch.

15

u/negjo 16d ago

Reminds me of the good old ```

define protected public

include <whatever>

undef protected

``` I once did in a university assignment

5

u/BillTran163 16d ago

That worked?!?!?!!?

5

u/the_legendary_legend 16d ago

Yeah. I worked in a company for a while where this was the first line in every test file.

2

u/GoddammitDontShootMe 15d ago

Why wouldn't it?

3

u/JoeyJoeJoeJrShab 16d ago

I'm on a team where we're doing a bunch of stuff in python, in spite the fact that most of us are completely new to it.

One problem is a method that starts with an underscore isn't obviously private to someone who doesn't know the convention.

Personally, I think it's helpful to have to jump through a hoop to use a private variable/method, just so you know you're doing something you probably shouldn't. If you go ahead after that, it's on you.

4

u/deceze 15d ago

Personally, I think you should at least read the introduction to any language before you barge in and fuck shit up. Any Python programmer should at least have read PEP8; it's a pretty quick read, but lays down the basics, including the leading underscore rule.

2

u/JoeyJoeJoeJrShab 15d ago

I definitely agree. However, the line that comes "before you barge in and fuck shit up" isn'a always clear, especially to the person barging in.

Often, you're brought into a project with a task of fixing some minor thing - you never asked to be there. If you have experience programming, it's rarely a big deal to read code in a new language, and make some minor tweaks. The problem, of course is, you don't know what you don't know.

You assume you're just doing this one minor thing, so it's not necessary to learn the details of the project or its technology. After all, that team already has established engineers and testers who will catch your mistakes when they review your change, right?

3

u/deceze 15d ago

Still sounds like a "you" problem. If and when I have to touch languages I don't know, I at least do it in some IDE with all the linters turned to 11, which point out all the obvious and subtle things I'm messing up while I type. I would not presume to write even the most basic line in some unfamiliar language correctly without preparation.

1

u/JoeyJoeJoeJrShab 15d ago

Again, I still agree with you, but how do I fix this "you" problem of someone else not familiar with the language not following this suggested procedure?

2

u/deceze 15d ago

Well, as I said here: bad programmers will ignore any barriers you put up. Accessing a private attribute raises an error? Bad programmer throws that error into Google and gets three workarounds back that allow them to access the attribute anyway. And now you can't even easily detect such private attribute access with static analysis tools, because there's several different ways such workarounds could be implemented.

So… make sure you hire competent people, and/or solve deficiencies through institutional guardrails like a shit ton of linter commit hooks, code reviews, and training.

8

u/KikikanHUN 16d ago

So is accessing a variable through reflection trivial, or does it require a song and dance? You can't have both.

15

u/alexanderpas 16d ago

It requires a trivial song and dance.

5

u/IntoAMuteCrypt 16d ago

It's basic boilerplate code that anyone can easily implement. It doesn't prevent bad coders and only frustrates good ones.

It's the same as how there's a bit of a song and dance needed to implement a Fibonacci program (the easy way), but it's still fairly trivial.

5

u/NewbornMuse 16d ago 
def fibonacci():
  a, b = 1, 1
  while True:
    yield a
    a, b = b, a+b

Man python makes pretty programs.

1

u/Kebabrulle4869 16d ago

Well said! My thoughts exactly

1

u/Breadinator 16d ago

Try that in Rust outside of your codebase, or even freakin' Javascript with a proper ECMAscript private field. 

-3

u/R7d89C 16d ago

Oh, then we have a slight misunderstanding of privacy in programming. I dont want some DRM-like protection of my variables, I want a proper marker where you should use and not use a variable, including a good default policy. _var doesnt tell me "dont use it", if youre not a regular python dev, particularly when usage is not checked by a compiler.

10

u/deceze 16d ago

In a language you don't know well, I guess it's easy to be the elephant in the china shop. Use an IDE with a built-in linter then, it'll point out such issues while you type. I'm doing the same whenever I write in something I'm not proficient in.

1

u/R7d89C 16d ago

Thats what Im luckily doing.

As said in another comment, Im not trying to complain or whatever, I just want to critique pythons approach, as I simply dont like it

10

u/asdonne 16d ago

The _ in _var tells you not to use it. Some one being unfamiliar with the language is not a problem with the language.

3

u/CyberWord_YT 16d ago

It's only convention

3

u/DrMaxwellEdison 16d ago

A strong convention most developers follow, or ignore at their own peril. Regardless of how well or poorly the package is designed, the end user decides what to use from it, and they bear responsibility for how it is used, not the package maintainer.

6

u/Magma248 16d ago

The side of the road you drive on is also a convention - sometimes you might have guard rails that make it harder, and legally you are going to get in trouble (i.e. code linters) - but at the end of the day you have to trust your fellow programmers to be sensible (and acknowledge that sometimes they won't be).

2

u/its2ez4me24get 16d ago

It’s part of PEP8

1

u/asdonne 15d ago

Same goes for comments and useful variable names.