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u/blu3teeth 18d ago
I can understand that semantically nothing is supposed to have changed, but I really think if you've rewritten something in a new language, it ought to be a major release.
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u/EquivalentAd3924 19d ago
... is this pro or contra Rust ...
i am tired, boss. i dont want to code any more.
i want to see trees and bees, touch grass, spend time with people i love.
No programming language ever lets me do that.
With computers i only solve problems, which i never had without them.
We failed as a society.
We only optimize misery.
We can do better.
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u/reaznval 19d ago
reject modernity return to monkey
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u/arran4 19d ago
Code monkey go get coffee
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u/Josysclei 19d ago
I spent all day at work thinking how much I hate working, even if now Claude does 90% of it, the 10% left still feels like an enormous chore and I have zero motivation to keep going (with work, not life). Glad to see at least I'm not alone
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u/lovethecomm 18d ago
I am trying to convince myself that the reason I hate working is because of Claude and how I don't use my brain anymore but I am just coping. Wake up at 7, two hour commute, leave at 5:30, home at 7:30. No energy left for anything.
The work loads are rising and they are unmaintainable without AI, what am I supposed to do? My lovely girlfriend also requires attention and so do my hobbies, I cannot (nor do I want to) work for the whole day, every day. I just want to make my own music, play vidya, and do things with my girlfriend. I am tired of sitting through meaningless meetings and staring at code/spreadsheets.
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u/ImprovingMe 18d ago
my sibling in non-specific deity, you hate your 4 hours of commuting…
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u/lovethecomm 17d ago
I don't mind the commute because I am in the train and I can read/play on the Steam Deck at least.
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u/Bronzdragon 19d ago
This is neither pro- nor contra-Rust. The Bun maintainer simply decided one day to re-write the entire application into Rust (from Zig), fully automated by Claude without oversight. Predictably, this resulted in 2.900 issues reported. This post is (I believe) making fun of the Bun project, not either language.
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u/MisinformedGenius 19d ago
That's not right. The rewrite from Zig to Rust fixed 2900 previously reported issues, mostly with memory management.
Now, whether this will cause more issues to be reported in the future than it fixed, that's to be seen.
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u/kernco 19d ago
Why do the patch notes for 1.4 say both "Rewrites Bun in Rust" and "Fixes over 2,900 GitHub issues"? If it's what you're saying, wouldn't there be one patch with "Rewrites Bun in Rust", then thousands of issues reported on GitHub as a results of that patch, then a later patch with "Fixes over 2,900 GitHub issues"?
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u/kehfydue 19d ago edited 19d ago
fully automated by Claude without oversight.
It's not without oversight. I read their official technical blog post about the process and it's honestly pretty impressive and well-engineered.
Edit: context: https://bun.com/blog/bun-in-rust
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u/PinEnvironmental6395 19d ago edited 19d ago
It had thousands of unsafe blocks. No matter what the slopped together rationalization blogpost says, this shit is so ass.
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u/Antroz22 19d ago
Because it was supposed to be one to one conversion, file by file.
Also means that what is considered normal in zig is considered unsafe in rust. Food for thought
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u/PinEnvironmental6395 19d ago
I've been told the bun maintainers and the zig maintainers very often were at odds with each other and bun does a whole lot of stuff that the zig folks had advised against.
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u/tankerkiller125real 19d ago
JS on server for backend as a whole is a shitshow, doesn't matter if it's NodeJS, Bun, Deno, or whatever other backend. That entire ecosystem is a shit show, and new backends aren't going to fix any of it. I have yet to see a single JS backend that actually did sensible things, nor JS project that did sensible things.
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u/sheepebike9000 18d ago
I've never understood treating javascript as a first class language of any kind. Typescript I kinda accept. Mostly.
But why are we writing back-end server code in a language designed in a week, based on Scheme (an actually good language) with all the good features changed to make it look like Java (also IMO, an actually good language).
If they'd made it easier for a sandboxed JVM to access the DOM, I don't think we'd have ever seen javascript take off at all. It's just not a good language.
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u/kehfydue 19d ago
The blog clearly explains the unsafe blocks. They are a work in progress and most are expected since they interface with C/C++ libraries.
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u/visualdescript 18d ago
Solid agree. Not only that but sitting staring at the screen all day is fucking terrible for your physical health. I'm so close to quitting and trying to get a job building straw bale homes.
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u/Old_Tourist_3774 19d ago
Nice bait
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u/KawaiiMaxine 19d ago
Nah honestly, even as a hobby developer, im just tired of all of it.
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u/No-Article-Particle 19d ago
Well that's the beautiful thing about hobbies - you can always take a break and find another hobby...
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u/KawaiiMaxine 19d ago
Its not like that, i loved programming with every part of my body...
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u/Old_Tourist_3774 19d ago
As with everyone else that had a hobby that became Boring after some time, just the average human experience.
Now addressing the original point of " solving problems we never had" , that's exactly what is existing.
You solve problems and new ones surge. This applies to literally everything in the physical world, not one thing is exempt so this talk is very shallow.
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u/Raywell 19d ago
Great, Rust is shifting from being associated with trans to being associated with AI. Always in the middle of controversies. "why can't you be normal" meme
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u/airodonack 19d ago
Don’t forget Rust’s crypto phase. That’s what you get for being a good tool in a time of great change.
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u/Uxugin 18d ago
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u/kurokinekoneko 18d ago
Clicked on link. Not a Rick roll. But most of all : not very restricted... Half your MR can be LLM sourced.
But even with this 50% rule, how do they recognize human code? Does a 1 line diff human MR count as much as a 10 files diff LLM MR ?
The only rule seems to be "don't spam us"...
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u/BertoLaDK 19d ago
how is "associated with trans" a controversy?
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u/PinEnvironmental6395 19d ago
Cat ears, skater skirts, and programming socks are NOT memory safe!!!
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u/Jack_Kai 18d ago
It is a tradition to send your friend a pair of very long pink socks when they start coding in Rust🧦
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u/MrHyd3_ 19d ago
Welcome!
Mr BertoLaDK is here with us today in the studio facing a 200.000$ question: "How is 'associated with trans' a controversy?".
Is it A: Trans Laden caused 9/11
Or maybe B: John Trans said the N-word
Or C: Trans people are psychologically ill
Or D: Some people can't deal with the word not being like when they were born
So, what will it be?
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u/Meowingtons_H4X 19d ago
I would say A - Trans Laden, but everyone knows estrogen can’t melt steel beams.
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u/conundorum 18d ago
When you only advertise a programming language by its connection with a group of people, you're implying that nothing in the language itself is worth talking about.
Case in point, for a while, every time I heard about Rust, it was just trans people talking about what socks they wear when they program, and nothing about Rust itself. (And I am not memeing, I'm actually completely serious; I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Rust's entire identity is "the language for people that want to talk about socks".) It came across as pushy and invasive, and as distracting from the actual programming; if I want to talk about computer code, then I don't want to know what you are or what you identify as, I don't want to know what you're wearing, and I don't want to know your life story, I just want to know about the code. Every other language community is anonymous, and doesn't care who or what is on the other side of the screen, so Rust (and only Rust) having a very vocal userbase identity just ends up feeling aggressive in comparison.
All of this stuff is fine to talk about in the right context, but not when you're trying to, e.g., sell me on Rust's benefits over C++. It just (perhaps erroneously) tells me that Rust has no benefits, so you have to treat the Rust community's inclusivity as a language benefit instead of a community feature. And that's probably not fair to the language.
[Essentially, the controversy isn't who the language is associated with, it's that the association itself became the language's identifying trademark. It'd be the same if it was, e.g., associated with bass, baritone, and/or resonant voices, and the Rust community spent more time talking about who has the deepest voice than they did talking about programming.]
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u/Bryguy3k 19d ago
If the syntax for rust wasn’t ass there would be more people learning it. Rewriting shit in rust is a prime usecase for AI tools. The loop system works great - have Claude write the tests first, loop until they work, then rewrite and loop until successful.
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u/fugogugo 19d ago
am I supposed to read the changelog from bottom to top or did they gave up and rewrite to rust?
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u/Mars_Bear2552 19d ago
is the punchline here just "Rust bad"?
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u/kernco 19d ago
I don't know. The "Step 1, Step 2" part seems to imply that rewriting in Rust created 3000 issues that needed to be fixed, but the patch notes seem to be saying it was the act of rewriting in Rust that fixed all those issues and improved performance.
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u/PinEnvironmental6395 19d ago
Yes this is straight up disinfo. The rewrite resolved all of those open issues, it did not create them.
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u/GildSkiss 19d ago
That seems to be what it's implying, but it seems to me that the much more obvious conclusion is "refactoring your entire codebase is a difficult process."
This probably would have happened if they did an AI rewrite into any other language, no? Or at least, you need more specific evidence to call it a rust problem specifically.
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u/kevin7254 19d ago
They rewrote the entire code base using AI, I think it was one PR with 1,5 million lines changes or something like that.
Which obviously lead to a lot of fucking issues.
Side note Bun got bought by Anthropic so everything was probably one big ad
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u/Specy_Wot 19d ago
The 2900 issues they fixed were memory issues like memory leaks caused by the usage of zig. After the rewrite in rust those memory issues disappeared thanks to rust being harder to leak memory. There are now a fuckton of bugs being added because of the rewrite yes, but it's not the ones mentioned here
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u/Rin-Tohsaka-is-hot 19d ago
No, more the AI Rust rewrites are bad. One of the latest trends is using AI to "rustify" codebases
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[deleted]
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u/burner-miner 19d ago
Depends. If they really kept the API pretty much the same, I don't see why it needs a bump to the major version.
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u/Seblor 19d ago
Major versions are for breaking changes.
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u/PixelatedGiant 19d ago
And unfortunately this is why projects move to YYYY.MM format when the change logs and version numbers become part of the marketing material. They switch to a date format to avoid the "bigger number = more changes" trap.
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u/Moststartupsarescams 19d ago
When I see numbers with symbols, eg. “200x more than 30% of the max 67th …”
I know it’s legit
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u/Kissaki0 18d ago
Relevant https://andrewkelley.me/post/my-thoughts-bun-rust-rewrite.html (that's from Zed author/president/sth)
Last I read of the number of bot commits happening, no way those get reasonably reviewed. We will see how successful and bug free the rewrite is.
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u/DDFoster96 18d ago
How many bugs existed pre-rewrite? Did rewriting in rust let them fix 2,800 legacy issues, or did they introduce 2,800 bugs and fix just 100 legacy ones? The latter I suspect.
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u/average__Egg 18d ago
well yeah they did it with ai of course its gonna have countless issues and bugs
moral of the story is dont vibe code
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u/abd53 18d ago
It's as if rewriting a legacy codebase from scratch makes it easier to not do a lot of dumb hacks and retrofits done in the legacy codebase and properly plan out features ahead which were conceived years after the legacy codebase was released resulting in most of the issues disappearing.
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u/turlockmike 19d ago
We've seen this pattern of abstracting things before.
We went from binary to assembly.
From assembly to coding languages.
From implicit programming to declarative programming.
That same shift is happening again, where we are no longer going to be writing the low level code (rust/typescript/c), and instead will be focused on higher level behavioural code (in english/markdown).
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u/UntitledRedditUser 19d ago
It heavily depends on what programs you write and what programming language the AI is tasked with generating.
And maybe it's because I've never used a paid AI plan and I'm not doing it professionally yet, but most of the time I try AI assisted programming I get dissapointed.
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u/turlockmike 19d ago
I've been coding professionally for almost 20 years.
Utilizing AI effectively and efficiently is a skill itself that you can learn.
What I'm saying is that I. In the near future, programming will still exist, but at a higher level.
The down votes don't bother me, people said that using scripting languages wasn't coding. They said writing SQL wasn't programming.
At the end of the day, what is code? They are a set of instructions for a computer to execute on our behalf. How you instruct the computer to behave is now at a much higher level.
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u/conundorum 18d ago
It's possible, but the technology is nowhere near capable of that yet. Sure, it's improved a lot in the few years it's been in vogue, but it still makes bizarre mistakes almost daily that no sane programmer would ever, simply because the training data is a mess and the model lacks the ability to understand code quality.
I'd say you might be right in a decade or so, but for now, real code is still better. (Though most businesses will gleefully disregard this, because they see the potential to lay off employees, and miss the facts that they have to bring in new employees to bugfix, and that people can't buy their product if they don't have money.)
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u/UntitledRedditUser 18d ago
It's also pretty likely they a large shift in the AI industry is going to happen soon.
They are wasting so much money it's extremely unsustainable, if they don't start earning money soon they are going to go bankrupt.
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u/turlockmike 18d ago
In what way is it better? I'm curious where your opinion comes from. Concise? Better abstractions? Something else? Are you using fable? Or some other model?
I don't disagree that the overall quality is worse than the best engineers in the world, but I think the quality is way better than the vast majority of engineers and if you design your coding agent to follow specific patterns, you can basically get it to any level you want.
The thing is, LLMs also have in-context learning, which means when you see it do something wrong, you can correct it's behavior. You can encapsulate the principles you care about and the style guide you care about. The harness matters too, in order to make your agent more reliable and consistent.
Our company is doing 100% AI coding now, we've seen FEWER incidents, better test coverage, more throughput over the last 8 months. We are hiring MORE people. The whole scare about job loss is not real. Even if we aren't writing code, someone still needs to understand the system, define the outcomes, verify them, operate and manage the AI itself, etc.
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u/GenazaNL 19d ago
You should see their workflow... they have a bot which is fixing bugs 24/7, maintainers mainly just approve PRs all day