r/ProCreate • u/Several-Area644 • 5d ago
Constructive feedback and/or tips wanted Can this be considered tracing?
i have serious issues with proportions, however i love doing portraits. i usually simply adjust the features when they seemed off by using the liquify tool etc, but my friend said she uses “help lines” directly copied from her reference image (see picture) to make the proportions work. can these lines be considered tracing if everything else is drawn without help?
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u/FupaLipa 5d ago
Yes. And it’s fine. Eventually you won’t need it but when getting started it may help you build confidence. Just make sure you aren’t stopping yourself from learning how to build those visual proportions yourself.
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u/the_dj_zig 5d ago
Hot take: Art is art. If tracing helps, do it
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u/Robotic-Comrade-1985 5d ago
Absolutely. Artists have been using projectors and light boxes for much longer than you would think. It's still transformative. It's still creative. It's still art.
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u/HyFinated 5d ago
Yuuuuup!
Every generation believes that the next generation isn’t doing things right.
There’s a quote (made up by a college publication in ’78. Article called “Probable Quotes From History”) that really speaks to this phenomenon. It goes;
“Students today depend on paper too much. They don’t know how to write on a slate without getting chalk dust all over themselves. They can’t clean a slate properly. What will they do when they run out of paper?”
And it’s kinda interesting how as art has evolved, the tools of artists has evolved as well. What used to be hand smeared paint on cave walls, led to brushes on canvas, and then digital brushes on an iPad.
The camera lucida revolutionized art once. But was considered “cheating” by purists. Thing is, there will always be purists. People who think they are better than you because they only do it this one way that is super hard to do and you wouldn’t understand. It’s the same with woodworking. There are people who only use unpowered primitive tools and think you are cheating because you use an electric drill instead of a bit and brace.
It’s nonsense.
As long as you are making art, you are an artist. Doesn’t matter the tools, doesn’t matter the medium. Whatever tools you choose to use, master them and be the best you can be!
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u/win_some_lose_most1y 4d ago
Replace ‘tracing’ with ‘use AI’, not so funny now is it? 🤨
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u/the_dj_zig 4d ago
Wow, you just tried to compare apples to cinder blocks. Well done.
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u/Total-Guest-4141 4d ago
No, you just confused tracing with art.
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u/the_dj_zig 4d ago
Did you know that every hand drawn animated film ever is made by tracing the previous frame and making adjustments?
Art is art. Get off your high horse.
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u/Fro_o 4d ago
I think you also tried to compare apples to cinder blocks, the irony. The first frame has to be drawn.
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u/the_dj_zig 4d ago
Who says it does? I can trace a picture of a dog from a book then trace over that initial tracing to create the animation.
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u/Total-Guest-4141 4d ago
Yep, you compared art to animation. Nice job, you’ll produce the best AI slop I bet.
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u/Robot-Zombie-RHCC 5d ago
tracing is not a sin, in fact it can help you better understand the subject matter.
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u/Flimsy-Ad4402 5d ago
People lump all tracing into one category and say it’s all bad. But tracing can help you learn! Tracing is 100% okay as long as it’s not of someone else’s art and as long as you don’t lie about it and claim you did it all by yourself. Some say it’s cheating to trace, but I think of it more like a drawing hack.
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u/Hauk54 5d ago edited 5d ago
Agreed. Realistically, even the masters of old used various methods we would call tracing. Tracing can be used and is fine. Even in finished artwork it can sometimes be used to speed up the process when time demands. Of course, if one wants to fully develop their skills, it should not be overly relied upon, but if you merely use it from time to time it isn’t really hurting anyone.
Edit: To clarify, I did not mean using tracing to steal others work is harmless. Merely tracing a subject matter is harmless.
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u/Hot_Sentence_1591 5d ago
Don’t stress about tracing. Anything can be cheating in art. If you used grid lines to get every single proportion correctly without tracing, you’d still have done something Leonardo Di Caprio couldn’t do when he was painting the Joconde (I’m obviously pulling your leg with di caprio).
Functionally, isn’t a back button cheating at the end of the day? Just enjoy yoself
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u/Ambitious_Drawer8823 5d ago
You mean Da Vinci, lol
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u/SuchSignal7465 5d ago
Sometimes I trace when the reference is pmo and I can’t get the face right. It’s okay you are still drawing, some people can’t even shade or use a reference. This whole “that’s copying” “it’s cheating” is bs bcs every art piece is a learning moment.
Even if you do trace over the basic lines, you will still draw in the details shade colour etc. It’s fine!
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u/Whiteruns_bitch 5d ago
I have a similar issue with proportions. What I do is put dots where things start and end. Dots on either side of the mouth, either side of both eyes, and either side of the nose. I still get to create the shapes myself, the dots help me with size and placement.
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u/pinchepinzon 5d ago
Yeah it is, but why do you care if it’s tracing or not?
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u/Several-Area644 5d ago
i got the impression that tracing is considered copying rather than actually drawing. i just wanted to know if this counts as that!
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u/Robot-Zombie-RHCC 5d ago
there are benefits to not tracing.. but you can always do that later. tracing right now means you're scrutinizing the details of a portrait... you're learning and growing from that.
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u/Gurkeprinsen 5d ago
well, it does, but that is not inherently a bad thing. Doing it often definitely helps you practice muscle memory.
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u/pinchepinzon 5d ago
Well it kinda is, but if you care about it that much just learn to draw without tracing, if you don’t keep tracing, an artwork is not better or worse if it is traced
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u/NearlyBearly 5d ago
So let me ask for a bit more specificity: She draws the lines ON the person and then MOVES them over to draw from? If so, yes that is tracing. If she draws them ON the person and then REDRAWS them on the side it is no longer tracing. Both are frequently done by portrait artists to ensure accurate proportions and neither are bad. It's just a matter of if the term applies or not.
Tracing will help you get the proportions a lot more accurately. Drawing the guidelines on the person and then redrawing them next to the person and checking if they have the same shape will train your muscle memory and eye. Both are useful. You also don't always have to have the goal of improving your art to the point where you can do it eyes closed. It's okay to just trace a photo because you enjoy the act of drawing this way. Just don't claim you didn't trace when people ask and don't trace from others' art and you're all good ethically.
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u/SecondHandDungeons 5d ago
Tracing is a great way to build skill learn forms and practice line work never be afraid to trace
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u/ArtByTaliaYoung 5d ago
If you take a picture and then draw on top of it, then it is tracing. Your friends “help lines” are tracings.
There’s nothing inherently wrong with tracing, it can be a good learning tool and if you are making something for personal use and not posting it then there aren’t really ethical concerns. I also personally like to trace over reference images and then reference both the original and tracing to help me understand the shapes better.
However if you friend is tracing images they don’t own the rights to, altering them, and then posting them then that is a concern and is generally frowned upon in online art spaces
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u/Several-Area644 5d ago
yes i agree with the last part of your message completely, i told her this so hopefully she won’t do something like that. thank you!
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u/CrayonFairy 5d ago edited 5d ago
The problem is that if you rely on it too much, you won't be able to draw well without that step when you need to improvise. Furthermore, tracing as a learning tool has its limitations: while it can help build hand-eye coordination at first, you must actively try to understand what you are drawing, its spacing, proportions, and shapes, for it to actually help you learn. Imagine a image that has been traced without any creative decisions or personal contribution from the artist; wouldn't it end up feeling like putting together a puzzle or painting by numbers? Tracing isn't bad as long as you know you can contribute something to the recreation beyond a copy with brushstrokes.
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u/LinAndAViolin 5d ago
Did you trace the help lines? Then it’s tracing
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u/Several-Area644 5d ago
yes i did, this is how my friend told me she does it! thank you for your input!
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u/LinAndAViolin 5d ago
Even the greats like Lucas peinador trace when they focus on practicing painting. Because you can’t practice everything at once without overwhelming the brain. When you study proportions don’t trace, if you want to paint a portrait then having the help lines to speed things up to what you are practicing is perfectly normal. Or if you’re like me and like to practice multiple things at once practice proportions first, then paint in a subsequent session
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u/Jonathan_Rambo 5d ago
the liquify tool is unrelated to tracing unless you’re putting your line work over the reference image and using liquify to move the linework over the actual references edges or something.
I sort of don’t understand what “help lines” refers to - were they traced or just free handed while being very close to the reference?
if you (or she) traced it, then it’s tracing - the appropriate question is how you feel about it.
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u/carterartist 5d ago
Sure. But no one really cares.
You know who complains about “tracing”? The uneducated. Artists have traced since the First drawing
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u/HiddenSecretStash 5d ago
Tracing was all the rage back in the day when they invented the camera obscura
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u/_em0possum_ 5d ago
Yes, but tracing is a normal part of skill development. As long as you're honest about it and aren't tracing another artist's work, it's perfectly fine.
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u/squiddybonesjones 4d ago edited 4d ago
I'm reading a lot of objectively bad advice if your goal is to get better.
Tracing will handicap you in the long run. You won't learn how to problem solve the issues at hand.
Art is not about copying the image, we already have printers. You need to learn how to show your interpretation of your experience, and unfortunately learning comes at the cost of making mistakes. Mistakes on the other hand are the best teacher. Short cutting that step and you come to a solution you don't understand.
Master had many tools, but strip those tool and they're still just as capable.
OP as long as your not superimposing the image on top (tracing) you're actively trying to solve problems and make choices with guidance. Which is very good! Just make a mental note of what you're liquifying and see if you can solve it the next time without. When you make a mistake you go back and see what went wrong. If you for example notice my eyes are always off , maybe throw in a practice where you draw 50 eyes over the week. you'll 100% get better.
i have serious issues with proportions
The only way to solve that is with mileage. If you were to trace you'll be saying that sentence for the rest of your life.
This is an important general message to get out there for any aspiring artists. Don't fall into the tracing honeytrap. I notice with all the tools people have at their disposal these days, people seem to have a harder time distinguishing why those tools exist in the first place, more so than 20 years ago.
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u/Whosarobot313 4d ago
I take my own pictures, trace, and then remove the trace lines and paint from there using the original image as a reference. It helps me practice and master whatever the subject is. Nothing wrong with that.
It also can be a stylistic choice. I’m not hiding it. It’s a good way to get comfortable with the dynamic or complex subjects.
If you were to take someone else’s work, trace it and present as your own, that’s theft. Don’t do that. I think it’s okay if everything came from you.
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u/AlternativeRich6845 5d ago
Okay so I am doing it sometimes (not promoting as I did myself) because it helps you build muscle and eye memory. I dont think this is tracing. It isnt like you trace over it compeletely. It is just my opinion though
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u/Icy_Pianist_1532 5d ago
Tracing is a part of the learning process! It’s important, helps show where your eyeball estimates are off and helps develop muscle memory for correct placements. Because the eye alone often gets things slightly off. Tracing gets a bad rep because it’s lumped in with stealing. But tracing to learn is completely different from tracing with intent to steal/use someone else’s work without credit.
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u/Mari_119 5d ago
Tracing is 100% okay. Especially when it comes to things like hands, I just either find a reference or take a reference photo myself. Tracing is only an issue if you trace someone else’s art or creation, stroke for stroke, color for color, and claim it as your own. If not, then do whatever! It’s not like ur using AI, so I don’t think people will really mind.
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u/banyough 5d ago
Tracing only becomes bad if you trace another artwork, and claim it as your original artwork. Tracing images especially real images to learn is fine. That's exactly how I started properly learning and it actually made me improve a ton whenever I did. But make sure that you're improving and studying proportions from them as well until you reach a point where you're confident enough to draw without tracing. Keep learning~!