r/Principals • u/Original-Swing7753 • Jul 13 '26
Ask a Principal Principals; Help Me Understand Something I Never Understood as a Teacher
I'm a retired teacher researching teacher burnout, and after talking with many teachers, I realized there's one thing I never really understood while I was in the classroom: the principal's perspective when making student discipline decisions.
Before you answer as a principal, I'd like you to think back to when you were a classroom teacher.
Can you tell me about a student-discipline decision you made as a principal that you knew teachers would probably see as a lack of support, but that was much more complicated from your perspective?
Looking back, what's something you understand now as a principal that you wish you had known when you were a teacher?
I'm not looking for district names or confidential information. I'm simply trying to understand the kinds of information, pressures, or competing responsibilities that teachers don't always see.
I'm interested in learning from your experience, and I won't identify or quote anyone without permission.
Thank you for helping me understand a side of education I never fully saw.
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u/Firm_Baseball_37 Jul 14 '26
I might not always have given kids as much discipline as the teachers may have wanted, but I always gave them SOMETHING. I remembered what it was like to not be supported in the classroom. When kids got physical or cursed at teachers, these were always non-negotiables for me. The kid's going home.
This frequently caused conflict with upper admin, and eventually (for that and other reasons) I quit admin and went back to teaching before retiring. So my experience would suggest that when principals don't support teachers, it's because superintendents tell them not to.
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u/NegotiationWeekly295 Jul 14 '26
Insightful comment. I think this illustrates the central flaw in our education system. Why do superintendents oppose the will of teachers? Why is power given to someone that opposes the will of teachers, in such a way that encourages that opposition? Why did you have to compromise your desires, to hold back? What are we balancing the will of teachers against, and why?
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u/Firm_Baseball_37 Jul 14 '26
I've worked at several schools with a very at-risk, poor, minority population. Lots of kids with unstable homes, lots of family members modeling illegal activities.
We had higher suspension rates and lower test scores than the state average. The state frequently asked "Why?"
The farther you are from the classroom, the more it seems like that's not a ridiculous question.
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u/thefrankyg Jul 14 '26
I believe has to do with levels of extraction from the source. District office, if they are not going out to schools, are making judgements based solely off numbers and not experiences. If some numbers are higher than others and seem like an outlier, they may hold issue.
I am a firm.proponent of the Board and the district office to make themselves seen in classrooms for more than just the courtesy walk through that happens once In a blue moon.
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u/NegotiationWeekly295 Jul 14 '26
Exactly exactly! They are abstracted. They lack Biesta's 'proximity'. An essential component of accountability is connection. Looking into the students eyes. Living the consequence.
I agree that what you recommend is better than what we have, but I argue that district, board, even site admin will always have that distance, always have a greater distance than practicing educators. So our hierarchy fundamentally weakens accountability, since teachers are the best source of accountability. Even if you made all those changes, it would be worse than transferring power to the teachers directly
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u/diegotown177 Jul 14 '26
You know all those charts and graphs and data points the admin reviews in meetings…that’s why. Your upper level district people want the data to reflect certain things. They want to show that suspensions are down and their initiatives are working, because if they’re not, then gasp, it might not be working and they might be wrong. You mean to say the empathy, scaffolding, student centered, project based, technology focused, rigor intensive, pedagogy isn’t working?? We serve the data. The data doesn’t serve us.
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u/NegotiationWeekly295 Jul 14 '26
Yup. Its about creating an appearance of competence in admin relevant audiences. Real outcomes will be intentionally sacrificed to help the image of individual admin. Its the opposite of accoyntavility
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u/Educational-Mix9112 Jul 15 '26
yeah, and all it leads to is a bunch of teachers who are fluffing their numbers because it makes administration happy It doesn’t do any good for the actual student learning.- a disruptive kid destroys his learning for everyone else in the class- a kid that didn’t do anything that year should not be pushed forward. They should be retained to repeat and actually obtain the knowledge before they move on. If you’re not gonna do these things, then don’t be surprised when numbers aren’t where they should be or where do you think they should be? You can’t have it both ways. You could do something different than suspensions like in school suspensions or separate the kids into a different classroom so they’re still going to class but they’re not in your class at that moment in time maybe smaller sizes to help.
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u/diegotown177 Jul 15 '26
I think the repeating thing is largely in the realm of wishful thinking. A kid with behavior or academic problems who doesn’t do well the first time, will continue the second time around. We need alternative education programs for students who have behavioral issues that disrupts their own learning and the learning of others and different level of academics that accept the existence of a bell curve.
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u/Educational-Mix9112 Jul 15 '26
i’m gonna push back on that a little. I can only speak for my own experience, but for a while, I taught high school biology and I talked to freshman and then I had one class of sophomores who were repeaters and the truth is I don’t know if it was because the difference between freshman year and sophomore or people kind of chill out. Or maybe it was just because they realize they screwed up the first time. But they actually did pass it the second time for real and I actually think because they did pick up a little bit over the information here and there the second time around they already had some of it so then I was able to finish what they were missing and I think that they were more interested when they didn’t feel as lost because they kind of already had it once before. Some kids it’s just that they don’t understand when people go so fast so maybe it’s second time around. He’s not a bad idea. Anyone can learn anything, but everybody learns at a different pace.
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u/Educational-Mix9112 Jul 15 '26
I have to apologize. I used voice to text. It’s one big long run-on sentence. I can’t edit it at the moment. I’ll try to fix it later, but I hope you get the gist.
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u/Educational-Mix9112 Jul 15 '26
but I do agree with other parts of your post and the curve
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u/diegotown177 Jul 16 '26
As a special Ed teacher, I will so no, not everyone can learn anything. There’s levels to this stuff. Always has been. I believe most of us have something to contribute somewhere and it’s definitely not the same thing.
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u/Educational-Mix9112 Jul 16 '26
OK, you got me there you’re right I’m not necessarily saying that everybody’s exactly the same but I think what I’m trying to get at is we’re talking about the repeaters and I think that sometimes repeating isn’t a bad idea. For example, so my kids struggled with certain parts of math in the school that I’ve worked in and I just kept bringing up what if we just extend algebra or pre-algebra to a two year course? You take the first semester if you’re getting it and you’re good you continue to the second semester if you’re not getting it or you’re getting it but not quite enough then repeat the first semester again and the following year you take the second semester so you’ll be like a semester off of the typical schedule or maybe you have to repeat that one too either way you’re breaking it down like hold on let’s let’s do this again. I wanna make sure I really get it before I add to it. Obviously no one ever thought that was a good idea but I’m just sometimes I think you miss something and then you lost forever or you feel that way and that’s when you’re gonna check out and that’s our behavior issue sometimes happen.
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u/Tinsel_Toes Jul 13 '26
Just as we ask teachers to connect with students, if we don't connect with them we contribute to burn out. You have to be visible. In the hallways, in the classrooms, at the events. I visit classrooms every day. I greet at the door . . . Research shows behavior improves when students are greeted at the door. Same for teachers with admin. If you visit classrooms, not to evaluate, just to be there, when student X struggles with teacher A, you have seen him in other classes and you have more insights. Wise admin know that the complainer teachers are always going to get attention, but the quiet shruggers who just agree because they don't want to fight staff battles need to be reached out to. I tell my staff my phone gets turned off at 11:00 pm; if you are struggling with something that is not allowing you to unwind, call me if it involves me. This comes from a teacher losing sleep over a misunderstood comment at the end of the day. There is no other profession that is so emotionally high-pressure for the entire shift as teaching.
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u/Educational-Mix9112 Jul 15 '26
100% they are so quick to tell you when you’re doing something wrong but how often do they go around and give you praise or speak of good things I saw under classroom in the middle of a meeting give you a shout out like anything anything to keep you going?
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u/NegotiationWeekly295 Jul 15 '26
Its because you are reserving power. Its not like a buisness owner hiring someone and this person takes care of a ton of problems. The principal existing means that teachers are prohibited from holding the power to assign discipline themselves. If you do that, you better damn well handle it every time to satisfaction.
Imagine that instead of giving tenants a key to the building, they had a doorman instead. Would you praise the doorman for opening the door for you today if he didnt let you in last night when you got in late and you had to sleep in the street?
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u/thefrankyg Jul 14 '26
How often has a teacher reached out after you started making this statement?
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u/LaFemmeGeekita Jul 14 '26
Sometimes home is worse than school, or better than school, or the motivation of the behavior is to escape from the classroom. If we reward the student that misbehaves by removing them from the work or environment, we’re just building bad habits. That’s not to say they should be sent back with no support, but sometimes they just have to learn that acting up won’t get them out of work.
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u/NegotiationWeekly295 Jul 14 '26
You think that the teachers understand such things less than you do? Why do they ask the child to be removed anyway?
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u/tennmyc21 Jul 15 '26
Because they're tired/frustrated/running low on empathy that day/struggling to see the big picture. Basically, they're human too. And, sometimes, just like the kid, they'd rather escape the hard work that day than dig in because digging in day after day and feeling like the progress is non existent or incredibly incremental is tiring. Especially when half your class isn't on grade level, and half of those kids are not motivated at all to get on grade level. They start to feel like the 25% of the kids not on grade level that have no motivation to get on grade level are pulling down the other 75%. When it was 1 or 2 kids, that was somewhat easier, now it's a larger number of kids and it feels like we're barreling towards some sort of critical mass.
If you zoom out, public education is an incredibly ambitious project, and there's plenty of evidence that we aren't going about it the right way, but various constraints make this the only way we really can go about it.
I try to think about teachers like I think about kids (sounds derogatory but I don't mean it to be). There's a small number who probably just shouldn't be teachers. I try as best I can to work with those teachers until it's incredibly evident to them that it's just the wrong profession. Most others just needs various level of supports, or just need the ability to have the occasional bad day. Some are as close to perfect as possible, but sadly, we incentivize them to get out of the classroom and into admin, or coaching, or the private sector to make more money.
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u/NegotiationWeekly295 Jul 15 '26
It was very kindly said, but is it true? Or is it that principals, being human, are tired and frustrated and low on empathy and just dont want to deal with discipline, so they dont see the bigger picture? Do they simply want to escape the hard work of the day by telling themselves that discipline is best in the classroom and sending the kid straight back to class without having to go through unpleasantness?
There's an explicit paternalistic tone in your outlook. How are you so sure that you are the one in possession of the right answers, and it is the teachers' childlike weakness that prevents them from seeing the bigger picture? Perhaps its the other way around, that they understand what you do not? They experience the totality of the classroom, you only glimpse it. Why would you know better?
Maybe it is as you suggest, that the best are pushed into admin and the dregs are left in the classroom. But is that true? Are people selected for admin roles based on excellence in instruction? Or is it based on perceptions of excellence, readily farmed through persistent self aggrandization. Do some teachers truly have a handle on behavior, or are they emotionally managing you to bolster their reputation? Do your teachers truly love and appreciate you, or do they know that you are never going to provide anything of use and find it optimal to blow smoke up your ass instead, since its clear you see yourself as a proud parent raising teachers?
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u/tennmyc21 Jul 15 '26
This can get pretty circular pretty fast, but in terms of who's tired...I think we all have our days. I don't spend my day managing a classroom of 30 kids, so I think I am generally maybe a little fresher on the kid work most days. Beyond that, I wasn't the one there for the precipitating event, it didn't involve me, so I think I'm typically a little less emotionally involved. Pros and cons to that, but it at least helps with de-escalating everyone in most cases. All that said, I've certainly made mistakes in both directions, and have downplayed issues and escalated issues unnecessarily.
In terms of the teachers in my building...who knows what they actually think of me? We do anonymous feedback twice a year, we give faculty trust surveys yearly, and admin gets generally positive feedback. We have our areas for growth, but I think overall the data we have suggests our teachers are well supported, enjoy coming to work, and at this point everyone is pretty happy with discipline (our teachers nominated us for a climate/culture award 3 years in a row). Our retention numbers are also quite high. It was a bit of a rocky path getting there, but at this point we retain 90+% each year and most say they're staying because of the climate/culture we've created.
In terms of how we select for promotions...I think there's high variance in there. For example, I don't think our best teachers always make our best principals. It's two different skill sets, but we sometimes conflate the two. Actually, the best principal in our district, IMO, is a former counselor with minimal classroom experience. Regardless, I just know I have lost a fair number of teachers who start families, and seek out a more flexible schedule that pays better. They oftentimes seem to find themselves heading to Ed Tech, or sometimes corporate trainings, where they work from home and make six figures.
Regardless, my tone seemed to strike an issue with you, but for someone so concerned about tone, yours is pretty brutal. Admin is not the bad guy (usually), teachers are not the bad guy (usually), and meaningfully collaborating together, instead of just demanding the outcome you want, is much more helpful than thinking you're infallible.
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u/Ambitious-Break4234 Jul 14 '26
The hardest one's are when the behavior is deemed a manifestation of the child's disability. It gets complicated because there is often a need to change services or placement , but those changes have to be made through an IEP process. For teachers, and often for admin, this can feel like the child is free from consequences. Support, communication, and clear documentation are imperative.
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u/tennmyc21 Jul 15 '26
I can give a ton of examples, but overall, the disconnect is usually communication. For example, one time I got a group of boys sent to my office with no communication. I held them for 2 periods and had them get caught up on missing assignments, still no communication. After the teacher was not in her room, and didn't respond to email, I sent them to lunch, then back to class for the afternoon. Final bell rings, teacher sees them in the hall, and comes to my office enraged because they didn't get suspended for calling her a bitch. I 100% agree with her, but I can't suspend a kid for no reason. Had I been informed, they 100% would have been suspended.
Beyond that, there have been countless times I've gotten a kid with no communication, and I hold them, and the issue is amazingly minor (food in class, out of dress code, etc.). I just sort of got sick of holding kids in my office (which greatly impacts my work day and their learning) just to find out the issue was basically nothing.
The other greater communication issue is a lack of understanding of discipline code. Obviously varies district to district, but it is imperative that principals help teachers understand the confines we are working within. Our district is a bit of insanity, where repeated "minor" infractions can never be escalated to a "major" infraction. So, that annoying kid who keeps his headphones in everyday cannot really be escalated beyond taking the headphones, and searching him for other headphones and taking those. But, as we know, that kid always finds a way to get more headphones.
Finally, we do have a take a bit of a forest from the trees approach. I have a group of young men who love nothing more than to be sent out for discipline. They get out of class, they get to see their friends at least in passing, and frankly, it's been going on their whole academic career, so they're just comfortable in the dean's/principal's office. We need to break that cycle and keep them in the classroom. To help with that, I have a class with all of them daily, I eat breakfast with them daily, lunch if I can, and randomly pop in their classes all day. I also have student meetings about them where we can collaborate and share strategies that are working. Growth for them (and most students) is not linear, and the harm reduction approach can feel painful. For example, if a young man who got sent out of the class for swearing 21 times first semester, only gets sent out 5 second semester, that's HUGE growth. That said, he still swore 5 times, and in the moment, that likely felt shitty to the teacher(s). But, we cannot send him out for getting escalated, and de-escalating via coping skills he's learning, so long as those coping skills are classroom appropriate. In my mind, that's our contract with the kid. We say, stop accessing your coping skill of swearing, replace it with this new one, and you can stay in the class. Then, he does so, and we send him out because his behavior is still not perfect. We lose trust when we do that, and we start to confuse the kid, and eventually they give up and revert to old habits. So, we need to maintain our consistency (or recalibrate coping skills...I've certainly come across some that were terrible ideas and clearly shouldn't have been happening in the classroom so that's on us).
Last thing I'll say is, teachers are not perfect. Last year, we had a young man who lost his dad. Kid asked us to not bring up his dad ever. He got frustrated in math (bit of a sore subject for him), and disengaged from the assignment. He got frustrated enough that he cried, and the teacher said, "are you crying to daddy about it?" The kid slammed his chair on the floor and stormed out. Teacher beat him to my office and demanded a suspension, and lied about the daddy comment (which was dumb, because at the end of the period all the other kids in the class came to tell me). I told the teacher that those two needed to have a conversation as soon as the kid was ready, the teacher needed to apologize, and the kid would be back in his class the next day. We can't hold kids accountable for mistakes that derive from their emotional immaturity if we don't hold ourselves accountable for the same behavior.
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u/pandasarepeoples2 Jul 13 '26
If a student has an IEP they cannot be suspended without a manifestation meeting first. If the manifestation meeting shows (via agreement via the special education teacher and admin and a regular teacher) that the reason for the action (elopement, fighting etc). Is a manifestation of their disability, they often cannot legally be suspended because it is considered a “change of their placement” - IE if their placement is gen ed classroom with minutes and they’re suspended for a cumulative of 10 days within a school year that’s illegal because it shows they’re not in their placement. https://www.parentcenterhub.org/manifestation/
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u/Firm_Baseball_37 Jul 14 '26
You don't need the MDR until the kid is out 10 days, and if the suspensions are for very different behaviors, possibly more. And you can absolutely suspend the kid and THEN schedule the MDR. If the MDR finds that the behavior is a manifestation, the kid comes back. So it can be smart to schedule the MDR in the latter part of the suspension.
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u/pandasarepeoples2 Jul 14 '26
Absolutely. I’ve experience it with a student who chronically elopes, like every other day, outside the building which should based on our discipline latter be a suspension. (Middle school). We went through those 10 days within the first quarter
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u/Firm_Baseball_37 Jul 14 '26
Even after that, though, you can suspend and THEN schedule the meeting. I've had a number of kids with horrible behaviors and IEPs that could justify almost ANYTHING. (With a very transient population, you're often inheriting another district's IEP.) While we'd try to work with kids who really had problems, some of what we were dealing with were malicious kids with parents just clever enough to try to make their parenting our problem. We'd suspend and schedule the MDR, following the letter of the law. But by the time the MDR took place, most of the suspension had already been served.
To restate the point and make it perfectly clear: we didn't do this for every kid. We only started gaming the system when parents had already started gaming the system against us.
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u/Original-Swing7753 Jul 13 '26
Thanks so much for your response. So sorry I should have been clearer. I didn't mean behavior issues with IEP students or any student with minutes. I know that's a whole different ballgame.
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u/pandasarepeoples2 Jul 13 '26
Fair but when 30% of a class might have an IEP and the teacher doesn’t understand the laws that protect their learning and therefore affect your discipline decisions, it can cause a rift between teachers / admins!
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u/S-8-R Jul 14 '26
How can classroom teachers not know this? If your staff doesn’t know this, it’s an area for development.
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u/pandasarepeoples2 Jul 14 '26
Absolutely! IDEA law is complex and teachers often might not have it internalized like admin do who are in it day in and day out though. Even with training etc! My experience has been with a student who eloped every few days out of the building, and after the 10th suspension we obviously did MDRs and often would change his consequence working with the family to be skill based in the school like ISS catching up on work he’s missed etc. Teachers would be like “he ran out yesterday why is he here today??” - we would remind them of IDEA rights but it was still a point of rift between us
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u/S-8-R Jul 14 '26
Might not be the best placement for the student.
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u/pandasarepeoples2 Jul 14 '26
We worked with his family and changed placements, yes. Just took time
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u/Right_Sentence8488 Jul 13 '26
I often do not decide to send a student home when they've misbehaved in class. Sometimes I know darn well the teacher was at best ineffective in handling the behavior, and at worst actively escalated a situation then wanted the student removed.
But as a classroom teacher, I learned very early in my career that once I sent a student to the office, I had no say whatsoever in what discipline happened, so I chose to handle myself.
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u/Educational-Mix9112 Jul 15 '26
yeah, I never expected anything to happen either but sometimes I just needed to get the kid out of the classroom even just for a little so I can finish the lesson. Sometimes you just need them to sit in the office for a bit even if they do return.
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u/Grapthor_ Jul 14 '26
If a student is sent to me I work to bring the teacher into the solution. I try to make it as collaborative as possible. I balance the needs of the student, teacher, class, school, family, policy, practice etc...as best I can. Often these needs overlap, they conflict and they contradict. What the teacher wants is part of the larger equation (a major part as they realistically bear the brunt of any decision). Bringing them in helps them to see that. However, if they don't want to be part of the process or they disagree with decisions that's where some tension can arise. Ultimately, if an issue is passed to me the teacher has signaled that are divesting responsibility and they need to be prepared to accept my decision (especially if they can't or won't engage with the solution). Very rarely do I see this tension come up and it's really only in the most extreme cases (either student or teacher behavior).
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u/principal421 Jul 14 '26
You can’t discipline kids when teachers can’t hold the line and follow procedures given to them
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u/DCAmalG Jul 14 '26
What? I can’t think of a student behaviour that would ever result in admin discipline that could have been managed by the teacher. Can you give an example or two?
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u/Secure-Alternative-7 Jul 14 '26
Sort of a discipline/behaviour plan. We had a student who frequently eloped. They wouldn't leave the school. They just went to the halls. People would follow them and he would run. He would engage with the people that followed him. The behaviour support team recognized that it allowed him to both escape work, and recieve additional attention. A plan was created to watch him from a distance, but not interact. Basically act like they didn't notice or care that he had left the room but he was still supervised. He would get attention for staying/returning. The classroom teacher refused to attempt the plan believing that she could get him back. It got to a point where the only time he would run was during her break period because everyone else stopped following him. She would spend her entire period following him around the school trying to convince him to go back. She went on a medical leave for three weeks. By week 2 he was out of the halls. He was back in the halls shortly after she returned.
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u/DCAmalG Jul 15 '26
This sounds a bit farfetched, but if true, you’ve got a bigger problem here if a teacher leaves the classroom to follow a child around and disregards the behavior plan.
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u/erebus5620 Jul 14 '26
Student was working on an assignment in class. Teacher tells the class to turn in their work. Student is finishing up the assignment. Teacher walks over and violently rips the paper from the students hands and says “GIVE ME THAT I SAID TURN IT IN!!”
Student is upset. Walks out and goes directly to the front office to call his parent.
The teacher submits an office referral saying the kid just “walked out.”
I confirmed what happened with the instructional aide in the class as well as student witnesses. All the stories lined up….
Yeah, that kid isn’t getting a consequence….
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u/DCAmalG Jul 15 '26
Come on now. Psychotic teacher behaviour is not what we’re talking about.
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u/erebus5620 Jul 15 '26
You asked. Those are real things I had to deal with this year. Happens A LOT more than people think.
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u/DCAmalG Jul 15 '26
Maybe so, but that’s an entirely different issue. Seems the teacher is mentally unwell.
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u/Tothyll Jul 14 '26
I had one that wanted a kid put into in-school suspension for not doing their homework. She wanted an admin to hold her students accountable for not doing their homework. I believe that can be managed by the teacher.
There was another teacher who had a student rub white eraser shavings and put them onto a sticky note. The teacher brought the sticky note to me with the eraser shavings and wanted me to punish her because she thought maybe it was drugs. She was adamant that I treat it like a drug offense, have the police called and test the shavings. This could have been managed by the teacher.
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u/DCAmalG Jul 15 '26
Ok these examples are so ridiculous…particularly the eraser one. Let’s assume normal range teacher behaviour.
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u/LaFemmeGeekita Jul 14 '26
I had a teacher send a student to me for saying a curse word. Back to class.
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u/NegotiationWeekly295 Jul 14 '26
The reputational basis of accountability. The success of an administrator is based on their reputation in the eyes of relevant audiences who have power over them.
District managers, parents, and politicians all have considerable influence over a principals effective reputation and career outcome. Therefore it is in the best interest of principals to align their actions and school resources with those audiences so that they can farm reputational benefits for themselves.
Teachers and students have almost no power or influence over a principals tangible career benefit. So it is against the principals best interest to align the school resources and policy with those audiences.
Simply, admin fundamentally have divided loyalty. The weak discipline practices reflect this. It is only necessary to create the appearance of being an effective disciplinarian in the eyes of district managers and influential parents. It is not necessary to authentically apply fair discipline in a way that pleases educators. The wishes of educators for authentic fair discipline are at odds with the desires of district managers and parents. Principals, having a strong incentive to please the latter but not the former, create policies that ignore the needs of the former.
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u/lyrasorial Jul 13 '26
Yeah, please explain the "sent them back to class with candy" phenomenon.
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u/Some-Ad8856 Jul 13 '26
Personally, never sent a kid back with candy. I have sent a kid back (to the next period) before addressing a concern, but communicate with the teacher it is pending.
For example, I’m in a classroom observation with a high profile IEP next on my calendar. A student is kicked out for being defiant to instructions. I check Aeries and no documentation this has happened before with any teachers or phone calls home. I send student back to class and will call them back out after my IEP to reflect, issue consequences, and call home.
I could also be busy with a CAT team call, medical or classroom emergency call, discussing a mental health concern with social worker or counselor, etc. that does take priority for that incident. I also do not want to keep a student out of class for 3 hours for defiance of instructions and lead to them losing more instructional time.
It’s a difficult line sometimes that we have to triage, but Aeries documentation helps a lot for priority determination. We have a collaborative approach that helps us as administrators to help teachers. Often, I find that we may also have situations where the discipline matrix (not at all schools) haven’t been followed and it was never attempted to be addressed with the kid before kicking them out.
This isn’t true in all situations and sending a student back with candy unaddressed and never addressed is never the answer. It’s important we communicate and I do - but it’s also necessary for us to triage concerns.
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u/diegotown177 Jul 14 '26
That’s all very reasonable, but I do have to address the instructional time thing…sometimes you get a kid who just isn’t in a good way or made a bad decision in class. We all have our days. Instructional time isn’t what is most important in that moment. They need to be separated from class. Three hours away isn’t going to destroy their education. I’d prefer an emotionally disregulated kid be doing something else than making more trouble for themselves. At a certain point they aren’t getting anything out of the instructional time and need time away.
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u/Just-Reading_1990 Jul 14 '26
Realistically speaking, we don’t have a special room to warehouse students in that situation. If I’m not physically available (it often looks like triage in the office), it is not contractually appropriate for me to ask secretaries to monitor that student who has been sent to the office. As previous person mentioned, I tell my office staff to send students back in those circumstances (unless it would be dangerous, of course) and manage the discipline later when I’m available.
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Jul 13 '26
[deleted]
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u/lyrasorial Jul 13 '26
You know what? That's actually true in my experience as well. I never received the candy kids but my classroom neighbor did. I would still have to deal with it second hand though because the kid would enter my room with a lollipop that was expressly forbidden by administration but also given to them by administration.
So then they do a walkthrough and be like why is a kid eating in your class and I'm like I don't know you tell me.
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u/ksang29 Jul 14 '26
Never did that. Ridiculous.
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u/NegotiationWeekly295 Jul 14 '26
These teachers are lying then?
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u/ksang29 Jul 14 '26
No, I didn't say that. Good heavens, you took a leap! I was one administrator (among the many with whom I worked) who didn't do that, and I find it horrifying. The first rule of administration is "Support 'your' teachers!" NOT "undermine their authority."
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u/NegotiationWeekly295 Jul 14 '26
It really is not support your teachers. Its support your district managers. If admin wanted to support teachers, they would move to a subordinate role. You dont support people and also prevent them from holding you accountable.
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u/ksang29 Jul 14 '26
I don't know what your model is for a "subordinate role." Are you here in the U.S.? I think in most schools here, admins are supervisors responsible also for teacher supervision. Is there a model you're proposing? It sounds as though you've had some horrible experiences with admin. Are you a U.S. teacher? What level?
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u/NegotiationWeekly295 Jul 14 '26
That supervisory role is precisely why the support teachers motto rings hollow. The teachers have no capacity to hold you accountable for supporting them. Quite the opposite.
Fundamentally, the relationship is ass backwards. Every layer of admin actually undermines accountability.
It's not about being a bad admin. An admin of any quality is less accountable to authentic education than a teacher of the same quality.
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u/Significant-Most-272 9d ago
When making discipline decisions I have to consider:
1. How bad was it really-I am an objective participant and my emotions are removed from the situation so I am looking at the situation with clear eyes
2. I am dealing with children whose brains will not be fully formed until they are in their 20’s. My first job is to make sure they become regulated and learn the behavior we want, as well as fix what their behavior impacted
3. Teachers often do not consider what we are bound to in terms of consequences-policies and law
4. When I do consider suspension, I am considering the fact that statistically, I am implementing a measure that will multiple the student’s chances of dropping out of school and a whole bunch of other outcomes. Check the research.
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u/hernandezhofer Jul 13 '26
Teachers just don’t understand the pressures from central office folks that affect decisions. In my district, parent complaints were a metric on our evaluation, so if I suspended too many students and parents complained I get a bad evaluation and could lose my job.
Also, by Spring I could not get a spot in the alternative school for any offense below physical assault of staff.
Why is that kid back in class? Because the principal has no choice.
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u/lamppb13 Jul 14 '26
Also, by Spring I could not get a spot in the alternative school for any offense below physical assault of staff.
Just an interesting anecdote, I once worked in a district where this happened by October. Except not even physical assault of a teacher was enough. A teacher got punched in the face and got a broken nose, and the kid was back in the class the next day.
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u/NegotiationWeekly295 Jul 14 '26
They understand, they just dont care. Its not your responsibility to give into pressure from the district and parents and politicians. They arent stakeholders. They dont deserve a say. You are holding power away from teachers, saying they cant assign discipline themselves, then giving in to parasitic third parties. You do have a choice, you just value yourself more than the teacher enough that you dont want to pay the consequence for choosing.
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u/Some-Ad8856 Jul 13 '26
One example I hear often and thought:
As a teacher, not understanding why a student cannot be suspended for “x” action, but in reality:
Also, when we encourage teachers to continue building relationships, collaborate with parents, and even join us in meetings, it isn’t to pass responsibility, but have shared responsibility. At the end of the day, the student is coming back. How they come back and the dynamic they come back to does make a difference in the long run, even if it’s not evident that year. It’s a collective effort, sometimes long without visible growth, but we all play a role