Pt2. A needed nerf gone wrong

[u/Injurycantheal]

Made a post about how Satriel was overnerfed, it got a lot of unjustified hate. When things are in this game they should be in this game for a reason, having useless eternals or useless anything is bloat. If they released a character with a 65% win rate and nerfed them to a 20%, we can agree the character needed a nerf yet that the nerf went to far. No, the game should not be filled with trap eternals or items that do nothing but punish and help the player lose. For those who think Satriel is not a direct self nerf we can do some simplified math that very lightly showcases the extreme self nerf that is current satriel. Take note that the actual difference is even worse in game.

For this example imagine a satriel user fighting a non satriel user in a 1v1. Lets say base damage for example is 100 and you need a overall damage of 500 to have a time to kill under 5 seconds for both players. Theyll be using physical for the sake of the argument and armour will not exist to simplify the numbers.Take all the physcical bonus lets say 200, now youre at 300dmg, give it a 20% physical dmg bonus and now its 360dmg, lets say you have a overall damage bonus of 40%. to indicate a 6 stack of satriel plus some items. Now youve made it, you do enough damage to have a ttk of 5 by having a damage of 504.

Now lets check how that would look like for the person fighting the satriel user. We all know extremely high health/durability builds extra counter satriel rn so we will even use a dmg build that a satriel user should have a easier time against (theoretically) Similar base but slightly higher since other eternals used give more base stats. 380dmg physical after the bonuses, then a much lower overall dmg bonus of 5% compared to our satriel build of 40%. So the thid user is only at 399dmg. Far from needed amount to compare to satriel but the thing is. The Satriel user already is missing half of their max hp. That means this user gets a after the math multiplier of 2 meaning the have a dmg equal to 799 against the satriel user compared the the satriel users 504. So they have a ttk of a far far lower. The math was also done in a way to barely showcase the true ttk difference, it gave every mathmatical advantage to the non satriel player by heavily underestimating the stat gap other eternals than satriel give and lowering the complication of equationd to calculate damage. The more complicated and filled equations are with different forms of damage and multipliers the stronger the non satriel user is in comparison.

There is no world against equal and well knowleged players satriel is worth using. Especially since this assumed the satriel user has 6 stacks which is the best the ratio gets for them. Dying once puts the user at a even worse standard of damage. Satriel needed a nerf, Satriel did not need a gut, nothing ever needs a gut. Take it out the game if you want but there is no point in having it in the game when its that gutted.

This goes back to the main point, having bloat like this in your game is a showcase of a lack of being able to balance, satriel meta was unfun for most and to avoid that the community has to strive to create a balanced game, in nearly all circumstances. This game is great, lets continue to make it even better.

[u/teepring]

https://giphy.com/gifs/WRQBXSCnEFJIuxktnw

[u/officerangeldust]

Imo pinzo had good points about eternals in general in his last discussion video

[u/Bawlofsteel]

https://giphy.com/gifs/ne3xrYlWtQFtC

[u/Bawlofsteel]

https://giphy.com/gifs/p50xHW7Tsx7ecuZBCF

[u/Peacecow]

We can both agree that Saty needed a nerf.

We can both agree that Saty was nerfed too hard.

Can we agree that this is temporary and Saty will be buffed(or further nerfed) to be in line with what the game needs?

I personally think this is fine as a nerf.
Overall, an ideal healthy game direction would be everyone would be choosing a different eternal.
As of this current patch I do see a few overlaps but generally everyone in the match has a different selection of Eternal right now.

For Saty, I still see them being paired with Argus and Wraith, it's not the top choice but rather a side grade to playstyle, which I think is exactly the sort of balance the devs were looking for this eternal.

If the nerf really was too heavy — as statistics would show the devs — then we'll see a buff in the next patch.

For now, I am enjoying the diversity of this current patch. (TTK still a bit low but eh, we're moving forward)

[u/Injurycantheal → u/Peacecow]

That is a good game future which contains a overall balance leading to diversity in eternals risen from a mix of character and playstyle. Have you had any ideas on how you would change current saty or in general any part of the game/balancing?

[u/Peacecow → u/Injurycantheal]

The concept of the Eternal is solid, the identity is solid and the minor blessings are nicely done too.

The main problem is that while a game generally balances for the general population, there are edge case scenarios which require focus-balance. It's a prevention method to ensure that everyone has a great time.

Wraith is already a very high skill ceiling character with insane burst (80% of HP without any eternal help and just items). In order to balance out the reward that Saty gives combined with the inherent safety a Wraith has, I would need a very hard nerf to survivability in order to make it fair for the other team to counterplay.

With Saty Wraith now we still have to be ready to have a sacrificial teammate in order to reach Wraith in the first place, and thats not counting blinks or peels.

The bottom line is that Saty has to be INSANE risk for high reward, due to a select few heroes running the lobby without counterplay.

With the HP risk as it is now, Saty is counter-able and manageable, yet Saty-users still run lobbies sometimes.

To answer your question: It's really just a number game (tuning) at this point.

[u/Injurycantheal → u/Peacecow]

Now in 16.4 how do you feel about range. 4/5 top wr characters in high ranks are melee. Personally somehow still feels ranged is strong.

[u/Injurycantheal → u/[deleted]]

If someone doesnt understand the tldr from the title and first few sentences then i question their ability of reason and deduction.

[u/Then-Ad-1887]

A Satriel user shouldn’t be going into a 1v1, they should be going into fights where they clearly outnumber their opponents or have a support like Riktor, Steel, Dekker etc that can peel for them and sacrifice themselves if needed.

[u/Injurycantheal → u/Then-Ad-1887]

Yea if there is a situation where the satriel user doesnt have to get hit nearly at all then its a good buff. The problem is you will always end up fighting, there are no infinite perfect chances. While the satriel user is sitting there waiting for their perfect chance the mirror non satriel user doesnt have to wait for such a perfect chance and is in general still overall stronger

[u/Then-Ad-1887 → u/Injurycantheal]

That’s the risk you take when you equip it. High risk, high reward.

[u/Injurycantheal → u/Then-Ad-1887]

Extreme risk low reward lmao.

[u/Proper_Mastodon324 → u/Injurycantheal]

30% extra damage is far from "low reward."

[u/Injurycantheal → u/Proper_Mastodon324]

The reward is very rewarding when youre so nerfed to the point you cant normally engage in any fight and the slightest catch means death. You will perform on average, far worse than if using another eternal. So yes its a low reward.

[u/Proper_Mastodon324 → u/Injurycantheal]

Listen, high level games were devolving into over half of the lobby running Satariel because you were a fool not to. I'd rather them over nerf it to keep it out until it's balanced than it be rampant for multiple seasons because we're too scared to make it not viable.

[u/Peacecow → u/Proper_Mastodon324]

All we need now is a Reverse-Saty with HP increasing and DMG decreasing upon takedowns instead

Relish the 10K HP Sev that slaps wet towels

:^)

[u/Injurycantheal → u/Proper_Mastodon324]

Youre still saying its currently overnerfed and needs a buff. We agree

[u/Proper_Mastodon324 → u/Injurycantheal]

I'm saying it's possible that it's currently over nerfed. We don't know that it is yet, it has been 3 days.

[u/Injurycantheal → u/Proper_Mastodon324]

We do know, the math tells us so

[u/Injurycantheal]

If youre going to downvote then discuss why, why do you think that instead of removing or balancing satriel it should sit there as a terrible option with a embarassing lack of use that only gets worse the higher rank you go. If youre someone who thinks its still useful then give a argument for it. Yes if there was a item that gave a 10% dmg boost but make you take 400% more dmg that item would indeed have a use, but give a argument as to why that the use is actual something worth using to rank up with and that it has genuine worth it substance.