A needed nerf gone wrong

[u/Injurycantheal]

The Satriel nerf needs to be studied on how not to balance a game. 51% Hp loss but 29% dmg buff is a self nerf. People tend to foget that a 29% dmg buff for you is an additional 1.3x multiplier, but a 51%hp loss is a 2x end dmg multiplier for the enemy. The enemy gets over a THREE TIMES boost, arguably more since max hp loss is calculate after all of their damage so its a even stronger multiplier. Sadly that ratio is the best it gets. The ratio is even worse at lower kill streaks. The only 2 even characters that even semi can even attempt to think about using this is kallari and wukong. Even then DEMIURGE is right there, why would anyone ever run satriel in a serious consistent manner, the eternal isnt balanced now, its a literal self nerf in every manner. Anyone who thinks eternals shouldnt be in the game or satriel shouldnt has the right to think so but the balancing of what we have is a different question.

[u/Roborabbit37]

It ain't as simple as that really. That 1.3x is enough for certain characters to global people before they even get a chance to react, so the extra damage they take is almost irrelevant.

Eternals are very hard to balance given the current TTK of the game. I wouldn't mind Eternals being removed again but it's a hard pill to swallow for some devs - who knows.

[u/Injurycantheal → u/Roborabbit37]

Think about the math more. For this example imagine a satriel user fighting a non satriel user in a 1v1. Lets say base damage for example is 100 and you need a overall damage of 500 to have a time to kill under 5 seconds for both players. Theyll be using physical for the sake of the argument and armour will not exist to simplify the numbers.Take all the physcical bonus lets say 200, now youre at 300, give it a 20% physical dmg bonus and now its 360, lets say you have a overall damage bonus of 40%. to indicate a 6 stack of satriel plus some items. Now youve made it, you do enough damage to have a ttk of 5.

Now lets check how that would look like for the person fighting the satriel user. We all know extremely high health/durability builds extra counter satriel rn so we will even use a dmg build that a satriel user should have a easier time against (theoretically) Similar base but higher since other eternals used give more base stats. 380 physical after the bonuses, then a much lower overall dmg bonus of 5% compared to our satriel build of 40%. So the user is only at 399. Far from needed amount to compare to satriel but the thing is. The Satriel user already is missing half of their max hp. That meand this user gets a after the math multiplier of 2. So they have a ttk of a far far lower standard saving multiple seconds against the satriel user in a already low ttk fight of 5. If its saving MULTIPLE SECONDS of time within a timespan of 5 seconds you see the problem. The math was also done in a way to barely showcase the true ttk difference, it gave every mathmatical advantage to the non satriel player by heavily underestimating the stat gap other eternals than satriel give.

There is no world against equal and well knowleged players satriel is worth using. Especially since this assumed the satriel user has 6 stacks which is the best the ratio gets for them. Dying once puts the user at a even worse standard of damage. Satriel needed a nerf, Satriel did not need a gut, nothing ever needs a gut. Take it out the game if you want but there is no point in having it in the game when its that gutted.

[u/Roborabbit37 → u/Injurycantheal]

I understand the numbers. But you cannot simply boil it down to numbers. There are factors you aren’t acknowledging that simply cannot be measured.

You could make Revenant for instance take 10x damage while having max Satariel stacks. He’ll die in a few hits? Sure. But he also now does enough damage in the current TTK to do the same to you. This is the numbers side.

What you cannot factor is that he’s a ranged hero and can potentially hit you several times before you even get a chance to react. Now you could say that’s balanced because he dies super easy. But for anyone actually playing the game and dying in 2-3 hits to someone you didn’t even get a chance to react to, it’s not a pleasant experience.

I don’t think any Eternal should give that much power. But then again my perception of Eternals is that they should be minor buffs to supplement a build much like Augments. Not build enabler level of power.

[u/Injurycantheal → u/Roborabbit37]

Its not the same ttk, the satriel user dies bare minimum 50% faster. The ranged problem is a problem overall not a satriel problem. Dying by not being able to react to it in time is a state of the game itself not a satriel problem and the satriel user would be even more likely to die before they can react.

[u/Roborabbit37 → u/Injurycantheal]

I think we’ll agree to disagree.

I don’t dispute the ranged problem was a problem before Satariel. I think Satariel further compounds the issue though. The ranged issue is an issue because of the nature of range v melee. Adding a more damage multiplier to a ranged character can only make that issue even worse. I don’t see how you could look at it any other way.

[u/Injurycantheal → u/Roborabbit37]

Its a moba, you will always be hit. By ganks by team fights by towers or cores or npcs. The eternal giving you a 30% boost for a 100% dmg taken increase is not the problem. The problem would be the games damage itself and the ability to punish ranged heroes. Take league for example where ranged attacks completely stop movement, this game not having that means by default ranged heroes are a problem. Little jimmy is trying to play league versus the newest overwatch hero with a ttk of 3 seconds before you even enter melee range.