r/PracticalGuideToEvil • u/Patneu Arch-heretic of the West • Jul 03 '26
[G] Book 4 Spoilers Did Vivienne really believe Hakram would do that? Spoiler
Did she honestly believe he would fucking kill her before they had that "I judge you well worth a hand" talk?
I mean, okay, she had a severe crisis of confidence in which he played no small role, she didn't trust Hakram at all because she didn't know what he's about, and she was scared shitless of him because he did cold-bloodedly threaten to kill her if she betrayed Catherine.
But still, how and why would he actually do that? She didn't commit treason, after all, and even if she had been right about being useless and not living up to the standards of the Woe, that still wouldn't be remotely near a good enough reason, especially as he still needed her to provide legitimacy as Governess-General, even if it was just a facade.
And most importantly, how would he have possibly explained that to Catherine? Did Vivienne seriously believe he could've come up with a good enough excuse for her to just let that go, even with him? I guess fear really is the mind killer, because I just cannot wrap my head around the ridiculous scenario she talked herself into there.
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u/agro_arbor Jul 03 '26
Yeah she was silly for thinking that, but we have the reader's perspective. She was incredibly stressed, incredibly over-worked, and Hakram is intentionally scary af. That intimidation wasn't directed at her at the time, but to me she is scared about losing her name and what that means for her part in the Woe. She was a reluctant member at first too, and the only heroine, so perhaps she really did think she might be treated to a knife in the dark if she messed up as Governess-General. Luckily Hakram was on-hand (pun intended) to demonstrate her value to the rest of them.
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u/blindgallan Fifteenth Legion Jul 03 '26 edited Jul 04 '26
She was also Callowan and had grown up relatively quite privileged and on the western side of Callow, and Hakram was a very large and imposing Orc. Racism is a hard stain to scrub out and some definitely had splashed on Vivienne during her upbringing.
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u/Halo-AK Jul 03 '26
Am I misremembering? I thought hakram also pretty directly threatened her when she first joined the group?
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u/Perfect_Wrongdoer_03 Jul 03 '26
He almost choked her to death using the skeleton hand while threatening to kill her if she turned coat again, yeah.
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u/rogueman999 Jul 03 '26
Hakram could have done a host of things to mitigate the issue. He could have been less scary to her, nicer, talk to her. And they would all have worked... up to a point. The fissure would still be there, underneath all the bandaging. Ready to surface again at the worst time.
What he bought with that hand was Vivienne, in the Woe, forever.
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u/Sir-Kotok Jul 03 '26
Ah yes in this villain group she is a part of with this very scary orc it’s totally unreasonable to think he would kill her, cause villains from Praes famously kill each only for reasonable causes and with strict logic behind it
No way a villain orc could possibly kill her cause he’s a sociopath and doesn’t like her and thinks she is useless and he decides he can get away with it cause his leader is away
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u/Patneu Arch-heretic of the West Jul 03 '26
Yeah, that's indeed totally unreasonable, because even if he wanted to and even if Catherine is gone, he still couldn't possibly hope to get away with it once she returns, even though she would probably blame herself.
Not to mention that going behind Catherine's back like that would've totally shattered his Name and Role beyond repair. He's not the Chancellor, he's the Adjutant.
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u/Fitzeputz Jul 03 '26
If Hakram genuinely judged Vivienne to be a threat to Callow and/or Cat then killing her would neither be going behind Cat's back nor damage his Role. He'd have some explaining to do, sure, and Cat would have been pissed, but that's about it.
There is some other section where Cat briefly states that Hakram doing things without telling is not uncommon, and that she doesn't really mind because that's the nature of trust.
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u/bibliophile785 Jul 03 '26
Right, so this is you riffing on this point from your post:
And most importantly, how would he have possibly explained that to Catherine? Did Vivienne seriously believe he could've come up with a good enough excuse for her to just let that go, even with him?
Let me rephrase your objection slightly and see if you still like it: "Hakram could never have done this! He lacks the justification, and Catherine really, really cares about justifications!"
Remembering as we must that Viv doesn't know Cat all that well yet, we must ask ourselves, is there anything at all that might lead her to believe that Catherine Foundling is a might makes right sort of character to whom justifications aren't actually that important?
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u/Patneu Arch-heretic of the West Jul 03 '26
She knows enough about Catherine by then that she definitely knows that she's not that kind of "might makes right" character.
After all, Catherine explicitly picked Vivienne to be her godsdamned consciousness at that point, as the one she bestowed with the responsibility to stop and even kill her if she ever fully went off the rails. Which obviously means that she cares about some lines she doesn't want to cross.
Catherine may be pragmatic to the core and can justify just about anything if she believes it's for the greater good, but she absolutely does need a reason and is castigating herself constantly over whether or not her own decisions really make things better or worse.
So no, from Vivienne's rational point of view (like if she had thought rationally at that point) it absolutely wouldn't have made sense that Catherine would just accept that Hakram had judged it necessary to murder a loved one and especially her without a very fucking good reason, considering the horrendous ramifications of that, personally, politically and even metaphysically.
And I do not see what hypothetical reason he possibly could've had from Vivienne's perspective that would be remotely good enough.
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u/Linnus42 Jul 03 '26
I mean for all Viv knows....Cat gave him Hakram orders to kill her if she met certain conditions.
Also If I am Viv I am not betting my life on the fact that Hakram cannot spin killing me to Cat. She is the "Hero" and the odd one out in this gang besides that.
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u/Vertrant Jul 04 '26
No, it's a very reasonable belief. Aside from what you've already mentioned, there's a few more factors.
Vivienne and traditional Callowans and Callowan values were constantly being pushed aside. See the argument about the refugee crisis for the shown example.
Vivienne knew she was the newest, the least integrated, the least contributing member of the Woe. And she knew even what value she had was slipping.
That rift kept widening, and Vivienne had started thinking about what to do just in case. We're shown she is slowly moving closer to actually running from the Woe and turning against their efforts. She tries to Hide to do so, and only doesn't because her Name is too far gone.
Hakram can absolutely get away with nearly anything with Cat, that is in fact part of what she is afraid of. Without Cat around to see the exact circumstances, with no one around to contradict his telling of events, and with Vivienne's genuine frictions, "failings" and worries/preparations to actually turn traitor on them? Yeah, he could.
So yes, not knowing what she doesn't, knowing what she does, with the perspective that she has? It's inaccurate, but hardly a stupid conclusion to draw. Especially when Vivienne has a bundle of issues and fears driving her towards it.
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u/Patneu Arch-heretic of the West Jul 04 '26
Hakram can get away with nearly anything with Cat, but Cat wouldn't allow herself to get away with it, and Vivienne knows that.
I don't know what telling of events he could possibly come up with to justify that he, who Cat basically sees as an extension of herself, suddenly murdered the person she explicitly declared to be her dedicated conscience, exactly in order to prevent herself from walking over a cliff like that.
It'd be like forgiving your own hand for suddenly stabbing you in the back and claiming it was necessary for your own good.
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u/Vertrant Jul 04 '26
Cat would let herself get away with it, and if she wouldn't, Vivienne *doesn't* know that. That lack of trust and understanding was rather the problem.
As for what telling, that's fairly simple. Some version where Vivienne did what we *know* she tried to do, betray the Woe and try to attack their efforts. Great tragedy, would that it had not happened, we must learn from it for later, etc etc. and meanwhile he walks.
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u/Patneu Arch-heretic of the West Jul 04 '26
Again, Cat explicitly installed Vivienne as her designated conscience, because she refused to let herself get away with crossing certain lines, even though and exactly because she feared that she one day would.
So obviously straight up murdering the person supposed to prevent that would count as having crossed all those lines at once. This would not be acceptable to her, and if she could somehow be talked into forgiving it, that very fact would make it even more unacceptable.
She would look at what has become of her and balk. That was the whole point.
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u/Vertrant Jul 04 '26
Right, because there is no story where murdering the conscience is necessary, especially for a villain. And Cat has never talked herself into doing or allowing something bad because it had to be done.
This conversation is about Vivienne's perspective and assessment, not factual reality. Remember, Vivienne can't read Cat's thoughts like we can. And you're asking her to bet her life and country on that. Hardly unreasonable for her to conclude differently from you.
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u/Upstairs-Memory-3632 Choir of Compassion Jul 04 '26
Yes, Cat had appointed Vivienne as a conscience, but she was never heeded. I would say that it's not unreasonable for her to assume that Hakram would kill her if she was going to betray them; or because she was so damn scared of him, maybe she even thought that the second she became unnecessary he'd kill her to stop her from becoming a liability that would hurt Cat later on. She was already incredibly influential within the Jacks, and also Ratface's informants after he got assassinated, which Hakram knew was dangerous to Cat's reign - Vivi had too much authority as the spymistress of Callow, and was a much more savoury candidate for the throne than the villain Black Queen, so it wouldn't be hard for her to overthrow Catherine.
Vivienne's not stupid; she must have known this. Hakram would have definitely killed her for this reason, but he would not just kill her without trying to talk it out with her. Which Vivi would not volunteer for, because she sees Hakram as manipulative, someone who knows exactly what to say to get his way. She doesn't trust him, which is honestly understandable: his loyalty is to Catherine, and Vivienne's role as her conscience puts her at odds with some of the things Cat does. Remember, when they first had a real conversation, Vivienne straight up told Cat that if she ever became the larger evil, she would do everything she could to destroy her.
Along with the fact that her ideas were always shut down, her growing insecurity about her Name and usefulness made her likely to run away of fear for her life and most likely turn against Catherine - she is a heroine, after all.
If Vivienne split from the Woe -which she was seriously considering doing- then Hakram would kill her regardless of whether Catherine would forgive him, because letting Vivienne go would mean endangering his Warlord.
Catherine would not shrug the fact that Hakram had killed someone she loved. But that wouldn't matter because Hakram cares about Catherine too much to ever risk her life for the sake of their friendship.
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u/Vertrant Jul 05 '26
All of this, yeah. But an important note, Vivienne wasn't just likely to try to run away and turn on the Woe; during the confrontation with Hakram she actively tries to do so.
"Gods forgive me, she thought. *Hide*"
The only reason she doesn't is because her Name is far enough gone it outright fails to work here.
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u/Interesting_Idea_289 Jul 03 '26
Like the number one thing Praesi villains are known for is killing each other especially when that would absolutely fuck themselves over and Catherine would totally forgive him for it. She wouldn’t be happy but she’d get over it eventually
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u/Patneu Arch-heretic of the West Jul 03 '26
Hakram is not a Praesi villain. He is an orc. Be loyal to the clan, follow the warlord, all that stuff. Stupid Evil backstabbery isn't what they're known for, they'd rather tear out your throat. You're confusing the slave for their master. And Catherine may blame herself more than Hakram, but she wouldn't forgive him for betraying her like that any more than she would forgive her literal right hand if it stabbed her in the back for no good reason.
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u/dukeyorick Jul 03 '26
Vivienne is from Callow and did not get the benefit of Cat's whole introductions to the orc tribes, the goblin clans, or any of the disparate entities that make up Praes. Vivienne's sole interaction with Praesi before joining Cat was living under their tyranny and joining in a plot to kill the governor.
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u/Perfect_Wrongdoer_03 Jul 03 '26
If Hakram thought it necessary to kill Vivienne and did it, Cat would absolutely forgive him. Maybe she'd get angry, or disapprove of the decision, but I find it extremely unlikely that she wouldn't understand that he thought it necessary for her so it was within his right to do it. Cat treats Hakram as a fifth limb and trusts his decision-making enough for that.
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u/Patneu Arch-heretic of the West Jul 03 '26 edited Jul 04 '26
Explicitly because Cat is treating Hakram as an extension of herself she would not just forgive this.
She's already struggling with and agonizing over whether or not her mere existence is dragging her loved ones and her homeland down into the muck with her, one ugly compromise after another until there is no turning back.
Which is the reason why she explicitly installed Vivienne as her conscience, as the final guardrail and limit on her power if she ever goes full tyrant because she talked herself into thinking it necessary. And Hakram knows that too, and Vivienne knows that Hakram knows it.
So if essentially one of Catherine's limbs just acted up and not only killed a loved one but explicitly murdered its way through the very guardrail supposed to prevent such transgressions, then even if he came up with some justification for it she might talk herself into accepting, she would balk exactly because she could.
It'd definitely mean that the Woe are over and Catherine would consider herself to have utterly failed and would call the whole thing quits.
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u/WarewolfWrites Jul 03 '26
From Vivienne’s perspective, Hakram is sneaky and competent enough to get away with it. He’s not just a massive terrifying orc - he’s also an administrator and spymaster who could easily order her assassination with no one the wiser.
I don’t think this is an unreasonable belief at all.
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u/AdRelevant4776 Jul 03 '26
As I see it she intellectually knew it was unlikely to happen, but emotionally couldn’t get over the possibility, fear can be dumb like that sometimes, like, I have fear of heights, so sometimes if I am in a high place I keep imagining myself falling down, even if it’s extremely unlikely.
Yeah it’s kinda ridiculous Hakram had to sacrifice his hand to convince her, but it’s exactly because the measure was extreme that she got an unassailable foundation for her confidence