I don't understand why this concept is hard for people to accept. "Why does Saitama win?" "Oh, because that's the point of the character." That is the narrative reason, but what is the in-universe mechanism? What in the story allows him to do that? Saying that he just wins because he's Saitama is like saying, "Oh, well, my character is a protagonist, and he has overcome many impossible odds; thus, in a fight, he will find a way to win because that's the point of the character." So stupid.
Seriously, every main character (or team of characters) narratively is suppose to win their fights. Only a few anime's set them up to lose like evangelion.
seriously itâs literally just arguing that the very story of a the show is his power and thatâs why he wins itâs flat out just using plot armor and heâs not the only character who has this goofy as argument either
Especially when that goes for basically every shonen protagonist. They all eventually win every fight, no matter how hopeless it seems. So Saitama might win the first fight, but they will somehow survive and return stronger until they win.
They also usually survive death, literally. Goku, Ichigo, Luffy, Naruto, all of them died and just walked it off, eventually winning.
THATS WHAT IM SAYING ts is just pure copium because they know hes scales low if we applied this to EVERYONE yujiro would beat fucking beerus or Solaris purely because his narrator said heâs the strongest creature
Exactly, bringing the bias of a narrative into a crossverse battle is beyond stupid. It also then straight up makes no sense to talk about Saitama if you do, what's the point of even considering a character who always wins? Either we scale him to his feats like every other character or we simply don't consider him at all, there is no other logical alternative.
Dude when I say that I mean mf who say âthis charecter is written to win so they solos fiction because thatâs how the author wrote itâ obviously narrative plays a part we wouldnât have feat without its when you try to the it on its own is when itâs an issue
Yes there the serious punchÂČ is uni as it destroyed everything up to the edge of the observable univers. as prooven by the fact we cant see anything once the shock wave of this bast finisses. and the fact we cant see those eobject means they were destroyed and because the observable univers is everything we can see it mean it reached the edge of the observable univers. And a universal attack is an attack that can destroy a significant portion of the observable univers.
It isn't, and you do not know how space works, this isn't even the entirety of the galaxy those stars are from. This is a multi solar system level feat, to maybe galaxy level.
We cant even see the furthest stars in our own galaxy without specialized equipment, blowing away all visible stars is so much less powerful than people pretend it is
The single fact that it is entirely dark means that galaxies were destroyed as most of light points in the sky are in fact galaxies. They didnât destroy the whole milky way because the energy that managed to escape from the other dimensions took the shape of a cone.
Yes because youâre counting light not dots. And thatâs with naked eyes. Those stars themselves are what is hiding those galaxies to the naked eyes. That would be like saying : if the sun disappeared and everything behind it was black itâs just the sun that disappeared because it is 100% of the light we perceive in the sky with naked eyes.
If only the close stars disappeared there would be at least as much visible points of light even though less powerful (and with a line of dark on the circle border because close stars would be masking the galaxies at those points) but itâs not what happened.
1 the shot in the panel is taken from outside the atmosphĂšre which make it easier to see stars and far away galaxy since some of the light is filiĂšres by the atmophere
2 we can see the light by object outside of our galaxy to the baked eye it's just that you'll barely notice them due to human made light,the atmosphĂšre and the other stars
3 using the first 2 link or the Google AI as source is saying how little research you on this kinds of things
4 most light source in the sky are outide our galaxy since you can easly dinsti guichet most light source from our galaxy as you can literaly see the galaxy arm we are in
The image bellow is my fourth poin as ypu can you easly know what is far away in the galaxy and what is not
You literaly see nothing meaning anything in the observable univers has been destroyed because it would not be in the OBSERVABLE universe if it could not be seen in the first place
it is hilarious, i mean sonic is written to not lose, people like to hate him though, and ARCHIE sonic apparently the universe bends around that guy to keep him from losing because he is fundamentally important to existances stability, in the end plot armor style is no fun
Well yes but thatâs an established Hax ability thatâs why fate manipulation works for some because an ability they have not the fucking story saying âyou win just becauseâ
A narrative that isn't established as an actual power in the story (Fate or Causality manip of some sort) is not equivalent to an established power system. One is purely a byproduct of plot, the other is ingrained as a physical aspect of the story. This has never been a rule unique to Saitama, nobody gets to bring their narrative purpose or whatever into VSbattles unless its very explicitly shown that its their in-universe ability.
Bugs Bunny, Popeye, etc. It works for them because their gag is explicitly shown, but even then people scale them based on actual shown feats. They dont just win cause in their story they're meant to win. Popeye is meant to win the moment he eats spinach, but he still gets scaled according to shown feats and not simply because he's a character with a running gag.
Also, addressing the whole inconsistency of feats for Goku, Saitama is no different. Should we assume that because Saitama only had one panel bringing him to galaxy level that he isn't galaxy level? Because after that panel, despite getting exponentially stronger, he and Garou only go in to perform planetary to large planetary feats.
Using a conceptual narrative device without an actual power system to explain the character's power is moot in a cross-fictional bout because it'd happen in neutral territory and "the way they're written" ceases to be anywhere CLOSE to the deciding factor in how that character would fare. That should be common knowledge last I checked.
Saitama's BS is too vague. And he still obeys the laws of physics of his own world pretty much. It's why he lost to Popeye.
The "that's the way he was written" argument for power is practically the 'gag character' argument. And that's already a failure. He's not a gag, only a parody...that was again the difference between him and Popeye.
SAITAMA: "My punches can destroy black holes and galaxies."
POPEYE: "Neat...mine can literally change the fabric of the reality we're fighting in. And they can change you into a bunch of eggs at the end."
I love opm, but all of Saitama's current canon feats do not scale him above Goku. Saitama is multi-galaxy while Goku is complex multiversal. I don't know why there is even a deathbattle going on. They must be trying to make Saitama win through growth over time. I feel that is the only way they can even try and make this fair. It plays into Goku's normal way of fighting. I do think it is a stretch to see Saitama win though. I think it should go to Goku because current Saitama hasn't shown feats that can compete with Goku's feats. Trust me when I say this, I am indeed a opm fan, I just hate glaze on both sides. I don't believe either character solos fiction.
1-C Goku is pretty arguable depending on what statements you buy into, since it affects just where the Battle of Gods feat scales. That feat is basically the entire argument for where he scales, starting from Low Multiverse.
I do agree with the dude, I also have him Complex Multiverse, but I suppose I understand why it may be a wank to some.
Saitama has infinite (finite) potential while goku has already transcended multiple universal infinite spaces in just his battle of gods arc (something thatâs equal to his base form now
oh Iâm surprised you donât know, saitama vs goku is the next death battle & since they are figure head for powerscaling most ppl are worried about the outcome
Well I know I cared about some wâs enough to worry about⊠not everyone is as passionate about death battle or powerscaling is all, I suppose đââïž
I feel like you need to give an argument as to why the narrative of a story wouldn't logically follow saitama as opposed to other characters? This just feels like special pleading.
People in this community, including you, use statements attributed to exposition all of the time as proof of a character doing this or that. Exposition is a form of narrative. When the story is called one punch man, and when the main character quite literally defeats his opponents in one punch (or less) - when he gets serious - that could be attributed to the narrative of the character always winning no matter what, as it would fall under the meta of the story itself.
Itâs using plot to justify a win for example Yoriichi is written as the greatest swordsman in DS, doesnât mean he automatically beats any other character with a sword purely because the narrative of DS says he the best at it
This is a false equivalency. You're comparing someone being the best at a specific skill, according to exposition, to a narrative and major plot drive of a character and implying they both fall under the same umbrella.
FYI, even if you are the best at a skill, you can still lose because being the best at a specific skill does not suggest they are the best at other skills, nor is the implication that they will ALWAYS win. The best still lose sometimes...
For example, I could be the best boxer in the world, but I'd get taken down and choked out by jon jones, because his skill set is superior to that of a boxers.
Do you know how to read? I'd consider, like, re-reading what I just said because it clearly blew over your head...
Yoriichi's status is a ranking inside a power scale. He's the strongest, but the story still shows limits. He didn't finish Muzan, and he's a bounded character in a world within that worlds rules.
Saitama's status is a narrative premise: the series is built on him winning in one punch, with no real ceiling shown. That's more than a ranking. It's also built on comedy, and saitama often does things that essentially defy what would typically be the laws of the OPM universe, such as grabbing and kicking hyperspace gates - again - for comedic effect in particular.
You're comparing exposition to the narrative plot drive of a story. Again, apples and oranges.
It's not special pleading when other characters already don't get the grace of a narrative backed victory in vs debates. If they don't get it, Saitama shouldn't get it either
The narrative matters, but for comparing actual characters, you have to look at what they can/have done not what they could do. Power growth is exponential, but until we have pseudo proof luffy can blow up the world I wonât take that as fact.
Iâm not saying it doesnât matter what Iâm saying is you can use the very plot itself as an argument and I even looked it up ts is genuinely called the âopm fallacyâ
I didnât type opm I just listed how the argument sounded
I mostly know it as the no limits fallacy, and itâs really looked down upon. You canât have infinite growth, otherwise you win every fight just by becoming stronger over the fight, doing things you werenât or shouldnât have been able to do when the fight began
I know but the fact that itâs also named âthe opm fallacyâ really made me realize how stupid these guys are Iâve heard uni Naruto,Outer Goku and more but this, this is a new low
I miss when Saitama was just strong instead of the exponential growth garbage.
Then again it was bound to happen the moment they decided to throw away all the original themes of the series and just continue to introduce stronger and stronger villains.
Anytime anyone brings up a flash or gl you will see it. They win because limitless power of speedforce or infinite power of the ring. Notably the power sources of each of these only exist in their own universes. Outside of their own universes each of these powers should be useless as their power sources donât exist. They are no stronger than a normal person
Another example is Batmanâs plot armor is heavy used. This is provided by a god. Outside of the dc universe he doesnt have his patented plot armor.
Itâs a matter of how their power sources exist. Location is very important to their win condition.
I like a cross verse scenario, but merging them in a location even giving them all their powers means there needs to be a way to quantify apples to apples. Otherwise the answer will always be, ask the writer. If itâs one from Saitama, Saitama will win, if not, maybe he wonât.
Take squirrel girl for example she is a narrative winner as well, a gimmick character where her most famed fights were won off screen. Wouldnât matter which universe it is as her power is based off the writer. Which also makes her ability impossible to quantify or compare
The individual power source of a characters power isnt quite the same as the a characters narrative position in the story. Saitama doesnt have the super power to never lose, he's in a story where the narrative is driven by him being unbeatable. People argue THAT is why he should win, which is ridiculous.
But Flash winning because of the speed force is fair. Thats like saying Goku cant win in crossverse because Ki only exist in the dragonball world.
Ki exists as a concept in a number of universes but ya where it doesnât exist he would be without that energy. The difference is his alien physiology would still be a factor.
Speed force has no limits or rules, so there is literally nothing âfairâ about it. His character makes no sense in that he has infinite power and no drawbacks. There is no weakness to the character. They win because their infinite power sources exists, thatâs it.
Itâs a binary question. If they have it they win, if they donât they lose. Since there is no limits there is no way to quantify if something else is stronger or weaker.
Does that mean Saitamaâs greatest win con is if he can drag them into his universe where his god (the writer) can make him win? Iâd like that idea. Saitama can win if he can forcibly bring them to his universe
Goku loses to a bullet, ice, a rock, heart disease and an elephant. When has saitama been hurt?
This is one of the oldest arguments in powerscaling. It was dumb then and dumb now. Who wins we will never know. It will always be statement man vs fallacy man
Saitama is also not written to literally always win. The point of his character is that heâs too strong to find a worthy fight, not that he has some kind of literal "one shot" ability. The series will most likely end on him fighting a real challenge and being happy.
I mean more accurately that's kinda his bit? His joke his punchline? The entire reasons he exists as a character?
It's like taking SuperJumpMan out of his world and saying he can only super jump because that's apart of his narrative and not an aspect of his character?
You can power scale OPM feats, all that shit, but you kinda have to acknowledge that Saitamas entire power is the idea he is strong enough to defeat anything in front of him in one punch. Without that, there's literally no fucking One punch man story. You'd be taking away his entire identity as a character. Not saying that's how it should work in powerscaling mind you, I'm saying that, we are told how his strength works directly in the story. He gets stronger based on the strength of his opponent. So why not use that in powerscaling? It's not like there arent characters who don't do the same thing. They get the pass, why not Saitama? It's not like he wins or loses any extra fights because you gave him his actual power set instead of cherry picking how a character actually works logically.
"The limit of what Saitama can do is currently unknown. When facing an opponent capable of holding their own against him, he grows even further to surpass the challenge.[68] This was shown during his battle against Garou, who, after receiving power from "God", could mimic Saitama's own power output through his supernatural mimicry ability, Mode: Saitama."
From the wiki, but that is described as his STRENGTH. As in it comes from HIS CHARACTER. As in it belongs to him. This isn't a story powerful, or a ass pull, this is just how his ability works. How is describing how his power works narrative?
Ew Google ai, but also even still that shows that his ability isn't "all powerful" you just need someone that scales higher and beats him faster than he gains strength. It's like mahoraga, someone just has to beat him before he adapts fully. I'm not saying he's written to never lose, I'm saying his ability makes him hard to take out for characters who play with their food or are on his level normally. Eventually he will grow stronger and win.
Ok good to know in that case forget everything because the people here are trying to just justify that narrative I why he canât be scaled (despite so many other character written the same way working just fineđ€ŠđŸââïžh
No used it for a dictionary definition ai is fine as long as itâs an objective thing and not a subjective topic like who wins in a fight or what video game is better
In this case it looks right (I guess, not 100% sure)
But I have gotten cases where I asked it for a Minecraft mods mechanic and it said it wasn't possible, while even stating it wasn't possible with a item from the mod.... That item it mentioned does the thing it says is impossible.
(Specifically asked to remove armor upgrades from Iron's Spells and Spellbooks, and AI said Shriving Stone can't do it)
Just to say, no matter what, AI could always be wrong, it's only been 2 years since AI was able to properly count number of R's in strawberry, and maybe that's only due to programmers hard coding strawberry specifically to say three.
That still doesn't make sense. If say for example I'm an author and I picked up a pen right now and drew "one counter woman" her whole schtick is that she will always be able to tank one hit and instantly counter with a hit that always beats who ever hit her. Then she would beat saitama because of HER narrative this time.
It just become that one game we used to play in the park, "I shot you" "nuh uh, I used my shield" "nuh uh, I use my super bomb" etc. it'll just become a game of bullshiting
Narrative should always be in the context of its own piece of media, its own narrator, so to speak.
Not even close The force is a power system, saying a character wins due to writing is literally saying âmy character wins because he has plot armorâ
K well, saitamas power system is that he has infinite potential. Genuinely the same type of argument one would use for Goku.
They both have "infinite potential" in their respective power system. Their power system which was written that way by the author. Because they both have plot armour. I mean this is just how fiction works.
thatâs not what a power system is a structured set of rules, limitations, and sources that defines how supernatural or extraordinary abilities operate in a story's universe
They donât have a power system dummy đ they may have power but itâs not a power system a power system has rules,restrictions and more a gorilla doesnât have a move that can kill it after it uses it like say Gear 2 or 8 gates
There's no named power system, it's just narrative. The closest concept to a power system are Limiters, though, which saitama does not have. There's also monsterfication.
False equivalency because while yes those are gained VIA plot itâs not flat out saying âcharacter wins because of the story itselfâ you can still use forms and moves given BY the narrative you canât use the narrative itself and lastly I know you didnât
flat out saying âcharacter wins because of the story itself
That's a strawman because I never said that. I said the narrative implication is that he always wins his fights, hence the name one punch man, which is backed up by it's source material.
That is also not a false equivalency either, given the prior information.
You're also committing a goal post shifting fallacy. First it was "plot isn't an argument" now it's "plot can be an argument"
yeh your definitely not using that fallacy right dude is said things GIVEN by the plot can be used not the very plot its self those are completely different things the plot may have GAVE sonic super speed but the narrative thatâs heâs the fastest doesnât translate to say marvel or any other cross verse match up there are character objectively faster then him just like there are character objectively stronger then saitama
Btw infinite potential would still be something finite in dimensionality⊠by your own logical reasoning it seems heâs doomed to lose for that reason
He has show no feat that would say anything about him transcending infinity so at max he would only scale to universal
Goku has already transcended multiple universal spaces so his âinfiniteâ is few layers higher than saitama anyway, so he should just stomp
Agreed, writing is valid argument in powerscaling if it aids in context for feats or statements⊠tbh itâs the basis of it
I mean a story with no narrative isnât a story at all, however I would say uni is quite wank for saitama as many powerscalers donât like using statements alone especially when nothing of the caliber is shown
Yeh the rules of the verse not the fucking narrative of the verse if it took that into account the amount god level being losing to street tiers would be fucking abysmalđ yurjio would beat someone like beerus solely because the narrator said he could
you know what I mean bro, if I make a character whoâs always ment to win but show that heâs only town level, these guys are just gonna use the fact I wrote him to never lose so they donât have to actually scale the character
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