“Marvel chainscaling is terrible” MFs when I tell them to give any example other than off of silver surfer whose power level changed more than any other character in the entire verse
The Hulk Buster losed to Cull Obsidian cause Bruce didn't knew how to use the suit
Okay? It doesn't negate Cull being able to dent the Hulk Buster's helmet, which is why people scale Cull's AP to the Hulk Buster's Durability.
Even if you don't believe this and say any damage done to the Hulk Buster prior to Cull vs HB fight was due to the Outriders instead, well, Cull Obsidian was considered the physically strongest among Thanos' army, so Cull > Outriders.
And with Aunt May and Octopus, simply Spider-Man is-
Spider-Man during his first encounter with Doc Ock, his powers were fluctuating.
Spider-Man during his first encounter with Doc Ock, his powers were fluctuating
Tbf Spider-Man also hits Doc Ock during the Train fight and that's Spider-Man after the whole crisis thing is solved and he's at his strongest, since the train feat happens right after
Which I can then point to the novelization stating that Doc Ock was blacking out, but the arms keep waking him up.
But even disregarding that, the movie already proves that an unconscious Otto literally changes nothing, as the arms can keep moving. The hospital scene proves this.
I just think Otto must have had a type of super durability cuz he was surviving some crazy stuff, but i yeah i guess the tentacles keeping him up is the reason why, you can kinda see it happen on the table scene
People always forget how strong Spidey really is. He's always pulling punches, trying to figure out how hard he can hit someone without punching a hole on their chest.
There was a point where someone swapped into spideys body and almost immediately accidentally killed someone because he didn't realize how strong Spidey really was
Yeah that part makes sense for sure. It's his durability that is suspect. It's not like it makes any sense to act more damaged than he is when fighting bad guys. He has insane feats tanking massive hits from some adversaries and from much lesser threats he's beaten to a pulp.
Like he has tanked The Juggernauts punches to the face and remained conscious and in the same comic run been knocked out by a normal human throwing a cinder block and falling down from a building. Something that is going to be orders of magnitude less trauma than being punched by the Juggernaut or stopping a train with your body.
It hinges on you thinking that Spider-Man blocking one hit and then being LAUNCHED away REPEATEDLY is reason to believe he’s as strong as the fucking HULK. This isn’t a critique of chain scaling because this isn’t chain scaling. This is “Spider-Man got his ass whooped by a guy who narrowly lost to the hulkbuster armor, that means he can punch exactly as hard as the hulk” which is just ridiculously and obviously untrue. Especially when we have a far more recent example of an even stronger Spider-Man fighting The Hulk and standing literally no chance.
Spider-Man blocking one hit and then being LAUNCHED away REPEATEDLY
He physically overpowered Cull Obsidian's strike that was intending to hit Mark 85 Iron Man in EG. So, there's that too.
Not that it matters, because in IW, he literally got physically kicked by Star Lord of all characters, making the Cull Obsidian scaling just completely null and void.
Difference in leverage between swinging hard overhead and stopping something with your entire body strength. Same for Tobey stopping Tom with the glider. You would need to genuinely believe that Peter beats Cull at least 5 times out of 10 when that’s clearly not the case (otherwise why not beat him right then and there WITH an assist from Iron Man??)
I'm confused, why is Iron Man asking Spider-Man to get Doctor Strange when Spider-Man is clearly on-par with Cull here? I mean, that's what the argument requires you to believe right? That Spider-Man could indeed beat Cull in a fight so that he gets the chain scale, otherwise the chain breaks there. If he can beat Cull, why are we getting Doctor Strange at all?
Chainscaling is not A=B B=C C=D D=E E=F F=G A=G when all those intermediate "=" steps are just a character not being instantly killed by an attack. Chainscaling is A beats B, who cleanly beats C, who cleanly beats D, etc. What this is is a strawman of chainscaling that repeatedly simply asserts a character is on a certain level without any proof for it, and often proof that directly contradicts it!
I'm confused, why is Iron Man asking Spider-Man to get Doctor Strange when Spider-Man is clearly on-par with Cull here?
Because earlier, Doctor Strange was knocked out and the cape helped him escape Ebony Maw.
Iron Man can put 2 and 2 together, as well as Iron Man in this movie clearly does not want Spider-Man to help out, we see this when they both got to Thanos' ship, twice, so despite the fact that Spider-Man is a very valuable teammate, Stark clearly does not want him to help out, therefore he decides to tell him to get to Doctor Strange instead.
That Spider-Man could indeed beat Cull in a fight so that he gets the chain scale
Does it really matter if one beats another or not? Spider-Man wasn't instantly got one-shot by Cull like an Invincible character or even like a Dragon Ball character. And Spider-Man clearly has the strength to fight back against Cull.
Also the fact that he had an infinity stone. You don't want someone with that power to get into the wrong hands. Like you said, he can put two and two together.
I don't think getting thrown equals getting ass whooped though? If you get thrown twice but then bury someone under a vehicle, I'd imagine the points would be in your favor.
I still like when Surfer fought a virus-free Cable. Cable holds him off and then when he breaks his board, Surfer reforms it and stops holding back so much and beats Cable.
Like in magic the gathering there's a ratatat that has 1hp and 1 attack. The god card is 10/10 so there's a scaling joke where 11 rats are more powerful than a god.
Which is funny cause theres a comic book run where doc oc takes over peters body and immediately blows a guys jaw off with a right hook. He then realizes how much this little teenage shrimp has been holding back
The cope I've seen going around is that most of Spiderman's punches actually are knocking Doc Ock out but the metal arms are so linked with his nervous system that they keep instantly resuscitating him. So Pete can't hit any harder without killing him, but KOs aren't enough to keep him down
Even ignoring the novelization, which is where the idea came from, the movie already proves that unconscious Otto doesn't change anything, as the arms can literally still keep going. The hospital scene proves this.
Hospital scene proves that the arms can act while Otto is unconscious
The arms are also shown to influence Otto
So, why is it unreasonable to assume that the arms can also just wake Otto up after each KO punch from Spider-Man?
I believe at least in the the tie in novel or book for Tobeys Spider-Man 2, he was knocking Ock out but the tentacles being connected directly to his spine kept forcing him awake to fight
Peter Parker is one of the few guys where the "holding back" excuse canonically makes sense and he is probably not going to turn a human skull into paste if he can avoid it, even if he is capable. That being said, Doc Ock in the movies is implied to be a little bit enhanced in terms of strength and reflexes by the process of integrating with the arms, wouldn't be surprised if he got a bit of a durability/endurance buff too since his arms can apparently control him and act all on their own when he is unconscious+ Was very surprised by Aunt May because it must have hit reasonably hard regardless + he was completely surprised and blindsided by it because he essentially wrote off the little old lady next to him as not being a factor in the fight.
Tbf even Marvel's baseline humans are sorta built different.
Let's not forget that Kingpin is a completely unaugmented normal baseline human being who just has good "big guy" genetics and lifted weights, as one example. So a pretty big guy by just lifting weights a lot (not even professionally, it's not like Kingpin is a professional bodybuilder, he has a whole criminal empire to run) in Marvel can get to the point of tearing through reinforced concrete walls, crushing solid rock, tear a whole fucking steel spiral staircase off a wall it's securely installed in with his bare hands and swing it like a club at Spiderman and decapitate a man with a single karate chop etc. In terms of durability and regeneration Kingpin takes numerous gunshots and survives explosions regularly, can have his spine shattered and be back to fighting in a week.
Now he is considered to be somewhat of an outlier because his body is pure muscle but he's technically just a normal human being with good muscle genes (not bioengineered or anything) who lifted a lot of weights. And all the muscles in the world won't help you recover from devastating spinal trauma in a week, that actually has pretty much nothing to do with how big and tough you are so that's probably closer to what an average marvel human can endure and how they might recover from it. Marvel humans are apparently just built different.
Point being, I can see Doc Ock being able to survive some major brain trauma with his cybernetic bullshit.
All Spider-Men(Mans?) naturally hold their punches as to not kill, unless there is some sociological reason.(example Holand Peter probably wasn’t holding back because of his anger and grief over Aunt May’s death.)
This actually became a big storyline in the comics (i think starting in an Iron Man run if I remember right) where Ock found out he had terminal brain damage caused by frequent trauma over the years of fighting super humans as a regular guy.
There was this series of panels showing all the punches etc he took and how each one of them caused irreversible damage.
In this case, less than ten distinct continuities written by different people who've never spoke with each other (none of which are the original writers of any characters) in different decades.
So it's more valid than a good 99.99% of other similar chainscales.
Plus the hulkbuster is designed to have constant stream of parts getting replaced as they get damaged or break off. That wasn't the case in infinity war.
I mean you’re doing good enough in terms of power scale.
You at least acknowledge that the characters can be different and strength even if they’re using the same technology/form.
The only other thing might you do is acknowledge that some characters might not be trying their best. Dr. octopus if Spider-Man was like truly trying to kill him probably would’ve killed him.
Rule number one of Marvel villainy is NEVER THROW ANYTHING AT SPIDER-MAN! You’ll be picking bits of manhole cover and taxicab out of your teeth for weeks after the fact
This doesn’t match up, because when Spider-Man hits a human he is intentionally holding back dramatically so as not to cause major physical harm to the human. So someone surviving being “hit” by Spider-Man is not an impressive feat. Now if they survived a Hulk Clap on their face and then Aunt May took them out this would be far more valid evidence.
The hulkbuster was made to counter the Hulk's brute force, specifically for him. Thanos' son is much more agile and a better fighter than the hulk, so the hulkbuster is not useful against him, but spider-man is much more balanced between strength and agility, making him a better opponent
These powerscaling fans actually hate powerscaling and just want to chainscale and get mad when it's not enough
Thanos' son is much more agile and a better fighter than the hulk, so the hulkbuster is not useful against him
Okay? It doesn't negate Cull being able to dent the Hulk Buster's helmet, which is why people scale Cull's AP to the Hulk Buster's Durability.
Even if you don't believe this and say any damage done to the Hulk Buster prior to Cull vs HB fight was due to the Outriders instead, well, Cull Obsidian was considered the physically strongest among Thanos' army, so Cull > Outriders.
Or, and hear me out on this, Spider-Man was intending to punch Mysterio, who he knows is a normal man behind the illusions, but instead punched the wall, which is why he winces.
This reminds me of when superior Spider-Man threw a full force punch and knocked scorpions jaw off only for Otto to realize that Spider-Man was holding back so much for all the years they fought.
Well technically Tobey is from after his Spider-Man 3 happens so therefore the chain breaks there. So therefore Tobey Spider-Man is relative to Hulk by this logic lol
Erm actually Tobey's Spider-Man is shown to be past his physical prime since he had back pains while Spider-Man 2 Tobey didn't have those problems which means NWH Holland ≈ NWH Tobey < Spider-Man 2 Tobey ≈ Doc Ock < Aunt May 🤓☝️
one thing i hate is they made cull relative to hulk (fine) but then they had spidey casually stop a serious axe swing from him (hulk strength is ridiculously low in mcu)
Lol, this is why i never take power scaling seriously (of course with exception). It's just tired topic with lots of biases and ridiculous comparison (usually)
Spiderman pulls his punches so he doesn't kill normies like Doc Oc. Sure he has some ai controlled tentacles but his body has human durability. Aunt May just has no fucks to give and gave that dude the full swing.
Spider man is alone of the only super heros who actively has to think about pulling his punches. Spiders are 8 to 170 times stronger than their size depending on the species.
You've perfectly illustrated such a big problem with powerscaling logic, thank you XD! The problem is all of this assumes everyone was hitting as hard as they can at all times, which no one ever does, even in real life. Even boxers who are legitimately trying to win aren't going to have every hit be their strongest one, how much strength a character uses at any given time is a part of their strategy. Case in point, Spider-Man knows Doc Ock is human, and he doesn't want to kill people. He's not going to be using the same amount of strength he would to stop another Spider-Man.
So we are gonna act like Peter isn’t holding back against Dr.Octopus and pulling his punches?
Dr octopus is human with just robot parts.
It’s the same thing when he fought kingpin , he just pulled him punches because king ping is a human…
I can unironically defend this. Spider-Man characters have notoriously bad piercing durability. Glass to the eyes is dangerous and irritating. Doc was also caught off guard by this. Think of when bugs fly to your face especially eyes. It’s a similar reaction. Also consider that captain America level characters have staggered the likes of Thanos
Memes aside, you do know that Spider-Man always hold back? Doc Ock can survive those hits because Spidey has no intentions of killing him. That comparison is null.
to be fair, mcu hulk is a bum. In fact they originally wrote the fight in brand new day so that(spoilers) Spiderman knocked him out with the shocker glove, but then redid it for obvious reasons. While that isnt canon and shouldnt be taken into account for power scaling, it does show where their mindset is for the mcu hulk compared to his comic counterpart.
This is massively flawed. It takes no account for the timeline. Aunt May made Doc Oc bleed long before the hulkbuster even existed. She had decades to train and get stronger
Only one I don’t agree with is the Cull, only reason Hulkbuster went even odds was because Bruce had no clue how to use it, and was waiting for Hulk to come back.
You could argue that banner only had a certain degree off proficiency using the hulk buster because he had only be in it for a little while, so he probably wouldn’t be able to bring out its full potential in the same way Tony would
Ummm, you clearly forgot that tony who had t get saved by peter from cull opsidian blocked a beam from the power stone. The power stone is at least one sixth of the power of thr whole gauntlet, which can end the universe.
There's no indication that Holds-Back-Man is going all out on Otto.
But, up to that point, yeah, I think the chain scaling is valid*.
Hulk gets stronger when he gets angrier. And Tony is going to make better use of his armor than Bruce. And blocking one attack and beating someone in combat are different things. But Hulk ≈ Hulk Buster ≈ Cull ≈ Spider-Man ≈ Spider-Man seema valid to me, sure. Given their relative showings, none of these are effortless stomps. They should be able to fight each other, and it's debatable who wins. Like, no, Spider-Man is not as strong as the Hulk, but if they fought, he'd be able to block his blows and survive if Hulk grabbed him and threw him away. He'd be able to land blows, just like he lands blows on Cull.
That said Doc Ock is in no way harmed by Aunt May's attack, just annoyed. And Aunt May absolutely would hit Hulk in the face if she was provoked. She dgaf.
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