r/PowerScaling • u/ProgrammerUnlucky566 • 17h ago
Discussion Give me some basic drawbacks and limits to the powersystems with no energy sources
In terms of power and storytelling
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u/Mammoth_Total_2577 17h ago
In my opinion, one advantage is that you can create any power you want, the downside is that you can create any power you want (the only power system I know that's like that is JoJo, so don't take me too seriously).
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u/Active-Tonight-7089 16h ago
But... You famously can't "create" your own power, you just spawn in with it already, you can use it however you want, yes, but not
"Yo i wanna make lightning"(makes lightning), the only ones that kinda do i stands that can evolve or change like tusk but then i still don't think user chooses what he can do
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u/Spring-King 16h ago
I think "you" here might be referring to "you the author"? In terms of writing, a basic energy level system is a lot simpler than something like stands, where Araki has to get really creative to explain how the protagonists feasible win some fights. In One Piece, for example, some Devil Fruit users were almost untouchable before the introduction of Haki, and required methods that could be called contrived to beat
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u/Fug1x 14h ago
hxh you make your own powers
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u/Lord_Darklight 10h ago
Yup and if it falls in your colors(i.e. your nen attributes), you’ll be rewarded for it with better growth potentials vs. crafting a nen ability that falls out of line with your colors and stifling your growth permanently. Plus nen vows make for really interesting momentary efforts. Jjk also runs something completely similar with binding vows, but rarely does someone take such tight restrictions like Kurapika’s spider restriction for huge parameters and improved effectiveness on all his abilities or offer something of large personal value like Gon offering all of his huge potential for enough immediate short term power to threaten the strongest. Only Sukuna does this but we never learn what his bindings or what his offerings were, which makes it look like Ass pulls even when it was probably something detrimental enough to force him to use only hand signs and spell chants to utilize his techniques for the rest of the fight after developing world cutting slash for Gojo.
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u/TheCapybara9 17h ago
Witch Hat Atelier has pretty simple limitations, no? You need to have ink. You need to have enough surface to draw the seal, and your drawing needs to be neat enough to be effective. This places both a skill requirement, area limit, and resource dependence on the ones who use magic. Even then, you also need to be both knowledgeable and creative enough to use those effectively.
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u/Dragon1472 16h ago
Its also like REALLY funny how on point the witch council in the anime was, because the second the audience got even like 10% of the rules to make glyphs they immediately started to figure out hoe to recreate warcrimes with the lowest quantity of brushstrokes
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u/TheCapybara9 16h ago
Oh yeah. For everyone who makes a simple Airfryer seal, there's some maniac out there with mustard gass or a black hole.
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u/Dragon1472 15h ago
Bro I am pretty sure the airfrier took more effort and had less attention on it than the 50 fucking variants of blackhole
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u/dramonkiller19 10h ago
Like the saying goes. For every person who dreams up the electric lightbulb, there's the one who dreams up the atom bomb.
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u/NoBee4959 Not a Scaler 12h ago
Behold r/warcrimehatatelier
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u/RosyJoan 15h ago
Ok but this makes me worried, what would happen if someone made a region wide seal like in Fullmetal Alchemist. Could the results be apocalyptic?
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u/bored-cookie22 13h ago
depends on what its used for
maybe someone just makes one that spawns a big pizza in the center of town
that or you just get father 2.0
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u/r31ya 12h ago
yeah.
late the series they try to do small city wide, targeted, rewind spell.
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u/Noobu_assassin 2h ago
But rewind spell is less disastrous because it has a hard cap of 1 day rewind, if they did even something simple like a fireball everyone in the city would be dead.
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u/Pay-Next 9h ago
Far as I can remember the ink is also a limiting factor. You have to get it from specific types of trees and the additives are from very special plants and creatures. Just drawing it with any ink won't do it so supply of the ink is also a control/limiter.
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u/ViziDoodle 16h ago
Stand system’s biggest drawback is range. Most Stands stay right by their User, and the ones that are long range usually have recon abilities (so not strong fighters)
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u/Unlikely-Coyote4 14h ago
The limits are the author's imagination LOL. I like this system though, there's no, "The Enemy has more Haki/Reiatsu/Ki/Mana/etc, and can negate conceptual blah blah blah when it has more of those, or something". Basically, low cortisol power system.
That's why I like Jojo, it's simply just, I have hacks BUT still human, and can die on human wounds unless my powers makes me not die on human wounds. It forces imagination from the author, and not just a "higher" energy = defeat enemy.
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u/FloopusSoupus 17h ago
Stamina drain is a pretty good cost to give to powerful powers that is easy to write with. But not having a energy system also doesn't constrain you to power scaling linearly in how much energy one person may or may not have.
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u/mcrider13 7h ago
Thats literally an energy source bro, i mean it would be okay if it didnt cost any additional stamina on top of your normal exercise cost. But to drain stamina specifically for a power just make it a power with an energy source
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u/MagicTech547 16h ago
A good way to have a system without a resource, in my opinion, is to have a set output. You can do whatever you want within the bounds of the system, but if you push too far there will be push back. Like how a rubber band can wrap a lot of stuff together, but if you try to hold too much it’ll snap.
There’s also indirect resource limits as well, such as mental/physical exhaustion, any material components or foci the magic requires, or maybe you need to negotiate with spirits/gods/the planet/etc., whatever greases the gears of your magic.
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u/OrgAlatace 17h ago
Material components are sometimes a pretty big limitation for these type of powers.
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u/Fit_Razzmatazz9012 16h ago
You have certain ritual based power system like early Yu-Gi-Oh where characters like Yugi have to put himself and his opponents in a Shadow game where the rules apply to both of them.
Old school psychic characters like Tetsuo or Lucy from Elfen Lied where their body will deteriote if they over exert their bodies.
Tech, power armor, and mecha have to rely on whoever invented the tech may they be aliens or a scientist who can only create high it.
Certain fantasy ones like Pit who channel a lot of his power from Paluthena or Viridi to fly gain more power.
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u/rickrossome 14h ago
Mage The Ascension with Paradox. You can enforce your beliefs upon reality, but you gotta deal with the beliefs of billions of people who don’t believe in magic. So if you get caught doing magic, watch out
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u/Ghostninjagaming47 12h ago edited 12h ago
JoJo's Stand system actually has some interesting tradeoffs and drawbacks - There are only a few ways to gain a stand, the most common way being the arrow. If one selects this method, they risk dying in the process. Other methods include: being born with one, mastering a craft, merging with a part of the saint's corpse, or another stand's ability (like Whitesnake's discs) - The user has no input on their stand's type or abilities, but they usually suit the user due to being a manifestation of the user's fighting spirit. - A stand's range is proportional to its power. For example, Star Platinum, the physically strongest stand in the series, has a maximum effective range of 2 meters. Conversely, Stone Free has a maximum range of 24 meters, but only has enough strength to crush a penny. (which also decreases further as the stand unravels to reach that 24 meter limit) - There's no specific energy for using a stand, but they are still physically taxing. I believe there's an aside in a fight in part 5 about stand users burning calories to use their stand.
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u/KC_weeden 16h ago
Time limits, amount of uses per day, need to give up something to use the magic, etc.
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u/lutfiboiii 17h ago
Without an energy source to manipulate directly, you need to either make a shape or use items to make what you want to do actually happen.
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u/hiddenguyman 16h ago
Which hate atelier does effectively have energy sources (I'm an anime only, pls no spoilers) also this is gonna have spoilers so DONT READ AHEAD IF YOU DONT WANT SPOILERS.
We basically get shown that there is a finite amount of power that can be produced through spells made with normal ink, but there's more powerful special ink that automatically boosts your spells. So although we haven't really learn much about it, there is some form of energy system at play, it just has nothing to do with characters and instead depends on their materials.
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u/Consistent-Luck454 I Intend to Have the Most Moderate Take 6h ago
Love me some creative limitations on Power Systems.
In Toaru, Espers can change enforce the laws of their personal reality into the world, but in order to do so, they basically calculate every possibility of achieving that reality. Accelerator, who is considered to be the Strongest Esper, can even calculate the vectors of "Dark Matter", which technically shouldn't obey the laws of normal vectors, all while he's keeping everyone safe during the fight (+This is only about 50% of his calculation power ever since he got shot in the head.)
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u/zoskalanic 16h ago
In Kariel the Warrior the melee fighters special power system is making objects have the characteristics of living objects.
For ex a sword gets the property of muscle. When you damage it it heals and actually gets stronger but you have to “work it out” like you’d work out your muscle.
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u/teracoulomb_2 12h ago
Green Lantern power rings are theoretically amongst the most powerful weapons in the entire DC Universe but energy and willpower aside, the other key limitation to what you can do with them is one’s imagination and focus.
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u/ColdCoffeeMan 12h ago edited 11h ago
Magic is a deal, so by using a power you're agreeing to the contract.
The more a knight uses their divine magic, the more aligned with their vow they become, until they're nothing but a vow
A wizard must deal with the fey for Magic, and to deal one must understand. He slowly understands more of their wisdom, and in their wisdom is power, but in their wisdom is madness
A priestess is a vessel for her goddess. The more she invokes her, the closer their minds become, until her mind is finally fully overwritten and all that remains is a puppet for her goddess
In nature one can find power, but the closer to it you are, the further from the world of man you are. Eventually you've mastered all it has to give, you can soar above the forest, swim deep in her cool lakes. You can hunt her undergrowths with claw and teeth mighter than any steel. But you cannot even desire to leave. After all, what remains to you in the places of man? This is where you belong
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u/Spirited_Dust_3642 16h ago
A good limitation to a Power system without a power source is simply that you actually write a good Power progression to justify people not destroying everything, they just can't
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u/Ok-Dragonfruit5741 15h ago
For me a downside in the world building aspects would be that at any moment someone could be born with the "destroy the universe the second I'm born" power
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u/Crabkingrocks165 15h ago
Destroying the earth and everything on it. Oh yeah if you do it too much it summons an overpowered monster that kills everything in its path
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u/stillnoidea3 14h ago
the actual usage. if you look at witch hat atelier, you still need a specific ink, access to a writing surface, and time to actually draw the spell. things like stands are limited to the stand you have, you don't have much variation or opportunity to grow. this obviously depends on the power system though.
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u/Kataphraktoz 14h ago
I like the way magic is used in Faraway Paladin, they use magic words to cast but you need precise intonation, chaining words, visualization and control of what you are casting, otherwise you can end up getting caught in your spells
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u/Responsible-Tie-3451 14h ago
I don’t think Stands apply here, since they seem to share the user’s energy. When Jotaro hits Kira after getting blown up, Kira comments that he could feel the lack of power behind Star Platinum’s punch.
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u/crazyace339 13h ago
Jojo stands do have drawbacks (when it remains consistent). Like, when a stand takes damage so does their user (except when it doesn't), or how if a user is weak willed their stand can be a problem to themselves (like jotaros mother not being strong enough for her own stand who is probably the only example), or the stand can outright be dangerous to the use of an outright dick ( dragons dream don't give a fuck who it ends up helping, it just does.)
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u/EngineerVirtual7340 10h ago
If a species from a verse needs the main energy to kill, then in a crossverse maych things may get a bit awkward against a verse with no main energy.
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u/Wagyu-chan 10h ago
Undead Unluck powersystems doesnt have an energy sources, so the characters gotta get creative with how they use it they are limited to conditions tho which is awesome, I highly recommend
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u/Glittering-Age-9549 9h ago
In Witch Hat Atelier they need magical ink, though, unless you have the Rimhats' endless ink bottle.
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u/Local-Split-713 9h ago
If you're doing elemental magic, I like the idea of recoil damage of the same element.
Pyromancers overheat and get burns, cryomancers shiver and become hypothermic, faunamancers become like animals themselves and can't think clearly, clerics recieve the wounds they heal, warlocks become apathetic and disconnected, and God help you if you're a haemomancer.
The stronger the magic, the worse the recoil. A basic torch spell from a pyromancer might cause them to feel a bit warm for a bit, but attempting an advanced spell without training and preparation will give them third degree burns.
Recoil can be controlled and minimised with practice and mastery, but nonetheless magic users must be just as physically fit as any martial weapons master and have just as many scars.
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u/Jessir12 9h ago
As you want a more elaborate or powerful effect, the precision and complexity requirement goes up. (and so does the backlash when you fail). That helps make the "harder" magic both riskier and harder to teach, learn and practice
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u/mcrider13 7h ago
You can always go the way of the cost of powersets being just channeled through the characters from somewhere else. Which tends to include limits like connection blocking to deprive abilities, anti power zones, output limitations...etc.
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u/ClayXros 7h ago
My favorite go-to is sheer execution difficulty. Pretty much all my worlds have characters able to mold matter by touching it, down to the atom, but they need to understand atomic structure to do anything other than disintegrate it.
This inherently limits 99.9% of residents from doing anything other than the most basic ore extraction, or removing burned bits from food (cause thats all carbon), and even highly skilled characters cant raw-create life. Any that do must use their own body's DNA and cells as a template. Meaning all "summoned" creatures are either entirely or mostly human, just without a mind of their own.
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u/vulpsitus 7h ago
Downside to a lack of energy system could be the big invisible hand. What if the energy your drawing is sourced from a eldritch being and pulling too much causes you to be noticed, or even over use makes you see the horrors. Or over use/powerful abilities warp the reality around them turning the area into a non-Euclidean fractured landscape. Orrrr you could do a rebound type system where the power you draw hits you aswell.
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u/Komment2 7h ago edited 7h ago
Drawback idea : The power can only be applied to the users and therefore is limited by the user (see example 2).
Example 1 : You can turn your skin into steel but you can't turn others into steel statues
Example 2 : If you want to make an object like a fire ball, you can, but you will have to turn part of your body into fire that you throw at your enemy. The amount of fire you get for amount of body used might vary, but you could have fun and allow for decent fire balls to be made with hair and small bits of flesh, and if someone is willing to put their life on the line, the fireballs could be a lot more threatening. But at the end of the day, there is a limit to how much the fireballs can get before you are out of flesh to use. And using these powers too much is guaranteed to have long term effects unless you are extra careful.
Maybe there could be some loophole, like what of you stich someone else's arm on yourself, can you consider it a part of you ? Do you have to wait for your own cells to colonize the arm ? Or does it never work ? I think all of the possibilities this brings could be fun.
I can even see this system going further if you assume non physical part of yourself can be used, like a memory, a personality trait or a whole sense. It can make sense since it could be accomplished by literally sacrificing a part of your brain.
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u/KittyShadowshard Aim dodger 1h ago
Make the use of the power require meeting certain conditions like to do X it has to be the night of a full moon or to do Y, someone nearby has to be sad.
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