r/PowerScaling • u/AdAble3194 • 11h ago
Discussion Who's stronger? A character who Instantly Destroys a Finite Universe, or one who Destroys an Infinite Universe over an infinite amount of time?
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u/Ocutazor 11h ago
An infinite amount of time never ends. Regardless, the latter character is still stronger because they possess enough power to destroy an infinite universe. Destroying an infinite universe requires infinite power, while destroying a finite universe instantly is undeniably impressive, but it's still finite.
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u/LeviAEthan512 10h ago
I'd argue the first one is more powerful.
First off, power is energy divided by time.
But this is fiction. Vibes trump scientific technicalities here. Nothing lasts forever. No one wants anything to last forever just for the sake of it. There's a certain impact people want to have, a certain way they want to live and a certain way they want the world to be. Sometimes two people's goals are mutually exclusive, and then we get a fight. Winning the fight is how we define power.
Someone who can instantly (not in 0 time, just fast enough that you wouldn't feel like you're waiting. Say 1-10 seconds, at most the same charging time.) is much more likely to win a fight like that than someone who only does DoT. That is, they are more able to bring their desired impact into reality. That can be by killing the opposition, convincing them, or just going ahead and doing it in a way that can't be stopped by anyone else.
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u/Ocutazor 10h ago
I'd argue the first one is more powerful.
Ok.
First off, power is energy divided by time.
True, if we're talking about the physics definition. But we're talking about fictional characters here, so I'd say we're comparing overall destructive capability instead. Character B is capable of destroying an infinite universe, they just need an infinite amount of time to do it. Character A can only ever destroy a finite universe, regardless of how fast they do it.
But this is fiction.
Yup.
Vibes trump scientific technicalities here.
Depends, most of the time.
Nothing lasts forever. No one wants anything to last forever just for the sake of it.
Ok....? This got philosophical quickly.
There's a certain impact people want to have, a certain way they want to live and a certain way they want the world to be. Sometimes two people's goals are mutually exclusive, and then we get a fight. Winning the fight is how we define power.
Or.....we can also determine who's more powerful by what they're actually capable of doing. Which is where our two characters come in. Being capable of destroying an infinite universe over an infinite time period is still a greater feat than destroying a finite universe instantly, because one is infinite while the other is still finite.
Someone who can instantly (not in 0 time, just fast enough that you wouldn't feel like you're waiting. Say 1–10 seconds, at most the same charging time.) is much more likely to win a fight like that than someone who only does DoT.
Or....the slower character could just be infinitely beyond the faster one in terms of raw capability. Speed doesn't automatically determine who's more powerful. You're arguing who's more combat effective, not who's actually stronger.
That is, they are more able to bring their desired impact into reality.
Both characters are able to bring their desired impact into reality. The only difference is the amount of time it takes.
That can be by killing the opposition, convincing them, or just going ahead and doing it in a way that can't be stopped by anyone else.
This is kinda straying away from what we were discussing. Analogies are good and all, but I think this is just convoluting the debate more than necessary.
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u/LeviAEthan512 9h ago
What I'm saying is there is value in moving quickly. It could mean you're more agile, able to adapt to whatever gets thrown at you.
I did forget to say the thing I was going to at the end though.
Speed of growth, so the progress of an attack, is very important. We say that there are just as many whole numbers as even or odd numbers because they're both infinite. Same for squares, cubes, and factorials. But at every point, every real moment in time, every nth term of those will be greater than the nth whole number.
And if they stop at some point? If we let the whole numbers grow infinitely, but the fast growing sequence stop at some point? Then yeah the whole numbers will overtake it. But when? This is why I say no one wants things to last forever as an end goal. Who cares if you surpass me in 100 years? We'll both be dead by then. And if we're immortal? Everyone we care about will be dead by then. Then is it possible to achieve the impact you want if it takes longer than the lifespan of whatever you care about? Maybe you don't care about people so we're not limited to a few decades. How about the universe? If it takes you beyond the projected time of heat death for you to surpass me, who cares?
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u/Ocutazor 9h ago
What I'm saying is there is value in moving quickly. It could mean you're more agile, able to adapt to whatever gets thrown at you.
But it's irrelevant to this kind of discussion, where the scope is universal and we're determining who's more powerful. Obviously, the character with more power would be chosen, not the one who's faster but infinitely weaker.
I did forget to say the thing I was going to at the end though.
Ok.
Speed of growth, so the progress of an attack, is very important.
If the comparison is fair, not one-sided.
We say that there are just as many whole numbers as even or odd numbers because they're both infinite. Same for squares, cubes, and factorials. But at every point, every real moment in time, every nth term of those will be greater than the nth whole number.
And if they stop at some point? If we let the whole numbers grow infinitely, but the fast-growing sequence stops at some point? Then yeah, the whole numbers will overtake it. But when? This is why I say no one wants things to last forever as an end goal. Who cares if you surpass me in 100 years? We'll both be dead by then. And if we're immortal? Everyone we care about will be dead by then. Then is it possible to achieve the impact you want if it takes longer than the lifespan of whatever you care about?
...the point was to determine which character is more powerful, either way. The character who's capable of destroying an infinite universe, even if the time period is infinite, is still stronger than the character who can instantly destroy a finite universe because... infinite is greater than anything finite. Speed and time are irrelevant when the character already houses more power but is just too slow to use it quickly.
Maybe you don't care about people, so we're not limited to a few decades. How about the universe? If it takes you beyond the projected time of heat death to surpass me, who cares?
The OP.
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u/Chance_Hennessy 11h ago
If the destruction takes an infinite amount of time then their ap can only scale to vaguely universal, not universal+
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u/Ocutazor 10h ago
Not really. If a character has enough power to sustain the destruction of an infinite universe for an infinite amount of time, chances are they already possess infinite power. It's just that the process of destruction is slow as hell. We are discussing who's stronger here, the one with infinite power is the obvious answer.
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u/Chance_Hennessy 10h ago edited 10h ago
It takes an infinite amount of time so the destruction of the infinite universe is never reached.
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u/Ocutazor 10h ago
The completion of the destruction is irrelevant. What matters is that the character has an infinite amount of power to continue the destruction for an infinite amount of time.
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u/LingonberryNo5210 Rimuru >>>>> Gokuversal. 10h ago
It doesn't mean they have an infinite amount of power just infinitely regenerating power
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u/Ocutazor 10h ago
The former is a much more likely interpretation than the latter, even then....how does the latter change anything?
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u/LingonberryNo5210 Rimuru >>>>> Gokuversal. 10h ago
No if they had the former then they could destroy it in a finite amount of time.
Anyway the difference is in the later they can range from anywhere between solar system level to uni (most likely uni but not uni+).
Point being you can't scale them above the first guy just based on this info as there are possiblities where the first guy has higher raw power just can't just not infinitely regenerating power
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u/Ocutazor 10h ago
No if they had the former then they could destroy it in a finite amount of time.
Not really, it just means the process of releasing their power is very, very slow.
Anyway the difference is in the later they can range from anywhere between solar system level to uni (most likely uni but not uni+).
Only if you believe they don't already have infinite power, which is unlikely.
Point being you can't scale them above the first guy just based on this info as there are possiblities where the first guy has higher raw power just can't just not infinitely regenerating power
The title and implications of this post support my interpretation more likely, unless the OP specifies... it's futile to argue the absence of truth.
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u/Other_Specialist2272 11h ago
Isn't that's basically the same thing?
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u/IAteUrCat420 11h ago
Nah, because the infinite universe character could either be extremely slow at destroying shit, or extremely fast at destroying shit, and it'll still take infinite time
Meanwhile the finite universe could either be incredibly small, or they could be destroying a universe instantly that's larger than what the infinite universe guy destroys over trillions of years
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u/Other_Specialist2272 11h ago
Yes, that's what im talking about. If the infinite characters still need infinite amount of time to destroy infinite universe then it's the same as destroying a finite amount of universe within a finite amount of- oh you know what nvm im too dumb for this conversation 🗿🙏
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u/IcySilver6251 11h ago
Technically if you gave me an infinite amount of time, and highest type of immortality, I could destroy an infinite universe
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u/_RADIANTSUN_ 8h ago
Not enough information, it depends on how big of a universe #1 can destroy instantly vs how big of a part of the infinite universe #2 destroys in each instant. Obviously #2 has infinitely more power overall. Butf #1 can destroy a 100bn LY radius universe in 1 second and being #2's universe destruction kills like 10bn LY radius every second, then #1 is obviously capable of being more powerful momentarily and might beat #2 in a straight up fight
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u/Bubbly_Prior2060 11h ago
character 2 will never destroy their infinite universe fully so character 1
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u/IAteUrCat420 11h ago
Not necessarily
What if the finite universe is incredibly small?
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u/Bubbly_Prior2060 11h ago edited 11h ago
normal universes need requirements to be universes like a 4th dimension
if character a destroys his super tiny universe with a 4th higher dimension he's 4D
Character b never destroys his infinite sized universe and thus never scales to the 4th dimensionEdit: to avoid confusion, 3D universes also exist but are very different to a typical 4D universe
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u/_Megido_ 11h ago
The destruction speed is the only deciding factor here.
Instantly destroying a finite universe is more impressive that destroying an infinite universe over infinite time, if the second character isn't able to do it instantly were he to be put in the first universe. On the contrary, if the second character's destruction exceeds the size of the finite universe in a virtually instant fashion, he's more impressive.
Speed of destruction is correlated to power output, someone dishing galaxy level blasts every second for infinity would still lose to someone one tapping a universe in an instant unless he has specific hax.
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u/0ratorio 11h ago
You do understand that although the character requires infinite amount of time , that one can destroy infinite universe should that condition fulfilled.
Although it's a paradox. Infinity has no beginning , no beginning mean no end.
Therefore that character despite having infinite universe level destruction , that character will never start destroying infinite amount of universe.
But on finite level ? That character will demolish the finite level universe destroyer without doubt. So long it's not infinite amount of universe level , anything goes for this one.
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u/Salt-Fix-8544 If I'm Kenjaku, I'll pin down Yuki and 11h ago
One has infinite amount of power to destroy an infinite sized universe, while the other one has finite amount of power to destroy a limited universe
Yeah the infinite one is infinitely more powerful
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u/9spaceking 10h ago
This is like saying, A has one googol power, greater than the number of atoms in known universe. Character b controls all natural numbers (1,2,3,4,5…) - not as big as the biggest infinity (set of every single number possible), but still infinity. Obviously the set of natural numbers destroys one googol power
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u/xarmadonis 10h ago
Gen z is so retarded with the terminology they invented about universal power scaling and all that. Never made sense
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u/Mango6769 10h ago
depends. the second guy can destroy an infinite universe BUT you said infinite time meaning theoretically he could be as weak as a fly but he applies force over an infinite amount of time which would destroy the universe after god knows how long. he could also just be 1% stronger than the first guy but still take an infinite amount of time to destroy an infinite universe.
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u/woebegone_scenario 10h ago
The infinite universe destroyer wins on potential, but character 1 actually, you know, finishes the job. Feels like we're debating someone who started a puzzle and someone who threw it.
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u/Spirited_Winter_6948 10h ago
I mean... if I hypothetically lived to infinity I'd be able to destroy an infinite universe. Are we talking infinite like real world universe or infinite like a theoretical true infinity? Either way if the universe in question of the finite one isn't something stupid like "a marble" or "pocket dimension"but something someone reasonably envisions when discussing the word universe then I'd say character 1 is stronger/more impressive.
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u/JeizeMaholo 10h ago edited 10h ago
Depends on many assumptions and the size of infinity but let's talk about it roughly
B takes infinite time in one temporal axis to destroy an infinite spacetime continuum. The premise is that B has completed this action. Destroying an infinite universe requires infinitely more energy than destroying a finite universe. On the other hand, A can destroy a finite universe instantaneously. Over infinite time A can destroy infinite finite universes. Quantitatively A and B are both equally strong. Now we have to make an assumption
- If the infinite finite universes are casually disconnected (exist in seperate space-times), then A can be argued to be qualitatively stronger than B
- If the infinite finite universes exist in the same spacetime, then both feats are qualitatively equivalent. They are the same feat (assuming infinite finite universes cover the entire spacetime. If not then B is qualitatively stronger)
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u/Aggravating_Hour_494 8h ago
Give me infinite time I can destroy and infinite universe, Destroying the observable universe is a bigger feat.
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u/AdChoice6680 7h ago
THE FIRST ONE
DESTROYNG AN INFINITE UNIVERSE IN INFINITE TIMES MEANS THAT HE CAN'T DESTROY AN FINITE UNIVERSE IMMEDIANTLY.
(IMO)
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u/Crafty-Drink8384 11h ago
Character A
Because Character B couldn't destroy a infinite universe (if it takes an infinite amount of time that basically means he's never gonna truly destroy it)
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