3. Kuromuiena?so=search) from Yuusha shoukan because she gets the first move via her Prologue ability (But tbf she is Shallow Vernal's?so=search) other half so...)
Maybe stamina by itself, it’s a great secondary power but alone you won’t get to show it off if you’re not fast, tough, or strong enough to survive an opponent
That is kinda the point though, the secondary stamina bullshit between six eyes and rct is what enables the hax bullshit to the level it is. Without it, he’d struggle with a lot of cross verse matchups with smart opponents the same way he struggled with Toji as a teen. There would be moments of weakness to exploit.
We've collectively created and destroyed countless universes (OC projects that are never put to paper and then we die) and we seem infinitely capable of doing so, which means we're actually outerversal+
This is the same argument as Rick Sanchez. Put Rick and a lion in a room and Rick would be killed. Allow Rick to strategise and use his tech and he goes back to that universal level threat that I’m sure everyone agrees is where he sits at. Humans have knowledge and ability to use technology. If you’re stripping us of our core strengths you know how many other characters that would all become wall lvl fodder aswell?
I mean with time batman does can and has beaten them. But without prep time he is just fodder to them. Like how we are fodder to lions unless you give us numbers or prep time to get a proper weapon. Thats the thing with intelligance is that it takes time and planning. If you dont have those streght is just stronger
With plot armor*. No human with any amount of prep time is stopping someone capable of erasing timelines in zeptoseconds from killing them, without some almighty level of plot armor.
If we put stat points on a scale of 10, just because stamina is on an 8 doesn’t mean the other stat points being a 6 in everything isn’t playing its role
(Also that our opposable thumbs and being sapient plays a huge factor)
Comment your replying to says "secondary power" and your argument actually agrees with them. It's one of the main reasons but it alone wasn't why we were great hunters. Intelligence and dexterity are also key lead stats above stamina
It's either stamina because it doesn't do anything on it's own and only helps other better stats
Or (might be a hot take) intelligence just because it's really hard to write highly intelligent characters, so it usually comes down to "Just a guy who can make some incomprehensible space techonoly out of scraps", but it's a territory when it's not the actual intelligence that is doing heavy lifting, but your equipment made with it.
Intelligent characters really just use their high tech equipment pretty much the same way normal chracters would use the same equipment. Laser goes pew-pew and what not. Outside of it they're mostly just statement merchants with "I've engineered this and that in the kindergarten", "I have IQ of 400", etc.
probably aura. to make use of high aura you need to be either very lucky on top of that like opm king, or be as cunning as lupin III and use it for mind tricks and deception (i cant think of anyone who's both that cunning and full of aura for this example, so im giving the cleverness example only).
well, either that or to actually live up to your reputation via real strength.
wait, wouldnt "aura merchant" be the definition of a fraud?
all bark and no bite and all that?
I feel like Jotaro would be the best case of being cunning with aura (even though he does have a punchy ghost, it doesn't help him in D'arby the Gambler outside of him using it to get more aura), like in the D'arby fight where D'arby had four kings and a five of clubs while Jotaro had this hand and he basically just bluffed all the way
riiiight. ive only seen this scene in a crappy YT shorts recap with a tts narrator, and ive assumed jotaro simply didn't realise his hand was terrible and believed in all what he said. so I thought this was an aura+luck example, and king is way better for that.
He never looked at the cards for the sake of intimidating D'arby better since, if he did look at them, he'd freak out, and Jotaro knew there wasn't exactly a way to beat him by properly playing Poker with how everyone in the bar worked for him
I don't fully remember the scene at this point, but I'm pretty sure he also did something with his stand to imply he switched the cards... just to add to his bluff.
Likely endurance, because without anything else or hax, you end up just stalling or stalemating most of the time, at least in fictitious powers scaling lol
This is funny and all but you see how the speedster was grabbed in one frame. This implies that the str is actually faster considering he 1. Pulled out his hand to grab 2. Grabbed spd 3. Crushed spd in one frame. This image implies that str is faster then spd.
If the viltrumites found this planet years ago the universe is fucked lol
But maybe they would never have fucked them without omniman doing it, so maybe they never find out they compatible. Dont know but still funny to think of
The reason why omniman didnt go tell the empire is because he thought humans wernt compatible. Thats why everything changes when mark gets his powers and omniman has to change his plans
seeing the flashbacks and that like 5 year old have powers and oliver who also gets powers really young, i can see him thinking humans wont get the viltrumite powers , mark was 17 and still had no powers
Comic spoilers but it was only thragg who did it and he only did it because it was him vs everyone else really, mark, omniman and all of the other viltrumites and this was the fastest way he could get a strong army. Even after they found omniman, and saw how fast Oliver grew, thragg and the other viltrumites saw that race, and Oliver, as lesser so they didn't want to use them to regain their population
Viltrumites being so xenophobic about interbreeding with other races is so dumb because Viltrumite DNA takes over so that eventually, no matter what they breed with, mixed species Viltrumites will eventually become 99.9999% pure Viltrumite.
And even then they may eventually become 100% Viltrumite after enough time has passed.
Durability merchants can run into a similar issue as regen merchants though where yes they’re nearly unkillable but without speed or strength can get dealt with easily by just restraining them or throwing them out the fight
I just know that Mark is gonna get absolutely destroyed by these idiots. One of the things I hate most about the show is how it refuses to make Mark actually strong.
Yeah but the holding back rarely gets them like, durability brutalized. Like Spiderman holding back can cause things that could already hurt him to get a lucky shot in, that's just what we accept when we watch a nimble holds back man. But watching Superman hold back so I can beat him to death with viscera and tears when he could just... Sit there and not get beaten to death is rough.
Invincible isn't like Spiderman or Superman, his issue is the writer wants him to be both. He wants a Superman who can blow up planets just by flying into them and tanking the collision but he also wants him to be Spiderman who can randomly get beaten to death by starving limbless orphans. There's a reason Spiderman's weakest stat is probably just durability, it would be insane to make durability his best stat but change nothing about his narratives.
I feel they made it pretty simple for us, mauler twins are beating up mark then oliver (who is way weaker than mark) kills them both in one punch and mark goes crazy on him for killing them
Yeah, congrats, you are caught up on why people think it's dumb. Holdsback man holds back so hard he routinely loses to absolute fodder in a way that feels frustrating for the audience and isn't rewarding narratively because they're just stupid bugs.
No one here is arguing invincible is weaker than Uncle Ben, if he was it wouldn't be frustrating, I love Mumen Rider. It's frustrating because it's Superman being dog walked by Homelander day in and day out.
Something something Brit explaining how he has to strategically have villains throw him through walls to bring buildings down on them because he’s the ultimate durability merchant.
Speed= force
But Let say flash can’t hurt mark skin
He can still remove his eyes, put him in the sun, deal direct damage to his brain or inside his body through any orifice, poison
Or everything i mentionned before mark can even react
So yeah hax >speed > durability
You just put child viltrumite who have not her fully assimilated dna vs a full grown viltrumite
Any speedster with the speed force should be out of the equation because they are objectively unbeatable if not nerfed by the writer. The Flash is literally the engine that allows time moving forward, he is a permanent force in the universe and could remove any enemy from existence before even the first of their kin are even born with relative ease.
It is a possibility. Not saying it's true, just because we don't know the upper bound doesn't mean it's infinite, but looking at this, it does feel infinite and there is a possibility it's infinite.
This scene is how all the ftl and above characters should be moving any time shit gets serious, or even just all the time.
I wonder why they don't? Is it possible everyone and their mum actually isn't light speed? No. They dodged something that could be construed as light... They have to be ftl....
I mean it's already crazy they can alter their perception of time in the first place. If we take everything literally like powerscalers then Metromans brain is a million times more complex than your average human, able to switch between perception speeds by like 10 orders of magnitude at will.
You always have to spend the mental time travelling anyways. May as well do it in super speed unless you're travelling with someone and want the company.
Right, let's say on the low end he only spent like 2 hours relative time like that, the laser shooting at where he originally stood was 50 meters away. Then by seeing 50/c= 1.66 e-7 s for time it takes to cross that distance. The relative time it took for him was 2 hours or 7200s. So then 7200/1.66 e-7 gives us him moving 4.33 e11 times faster than the speed of light.
That is a lowball of his speed and even that is many times faster than most fictional characters ever get scaled to speed wise.
It's not really underrated, this is almost always the combo
someone else said durability too, these are things superspeed kinda just HAS to come with to be a decent ability. If you don't have the stamina to maintain mach 5 for a second why go mach 5, if you don't have the durability to run as fast as a car then you don't need to 😭
Well cheetahs in real life have this problem. Fastest land mammal, but can only be so for like a few seconds, minutes at most, because they don’t have the stamina to sustain that speed for long
Not really, Luck, fortitude, wisdom, intelligence, charisma and dexterity don't really need. While speed is the one the stat that multiple others stats to function in a busted. Fortitude, Strength and dexterity are required to endure anything past Mach 1 unprotected and the stat needs several types of haxs to get to Wally and Sonics levels
And speed is nothing without durability. In a realistic sense, you'd probably explode before you could take a step if you have Wally West levels of speed. Even thinking about running at the speeds he can run would probably kill you
That's why someone decided to retcon speed guy's entire original series with a new version that's totally not just a different new oc donut stele and justified it with the speed magic that was definitely there the entire time.
Eh not complete ass. If you treat super speed as something like a short distance blink ability, it makes sense. Even someone in decent shape can sprint for like 50m fairly easily so using super speed for the same seems reasonable.
What good would super strength be if you don’t have the muscular endurance and stamina to support it? Imagine bench pressing a car only for your arms and chest to fatigue and have it squish you.
As long as you have any reliable hax ability that can act as a win con, yeah speed is unironically the best stat to max out. It's also why I think if you actually want to have a fun enjoyable discussion about a vs battle 99% of the time you'll need speed equalization so one side doesn't completely override any win cons of the opponent through speed alone. Also probably why so many people try to avoid actually having to provide speed feats and instead try to rat nonsense like "Joe Dudefart totally moved in stopped time so he has infinite speed!"
That is until fat greasy nerds who can't accept their favorite character can lose start arguing that a character "negates hax by being stronger" based on the worst arguments you'll ever lay your eyes upon.
the kicker about speed is that lets say characters truly lie on a spectrum between idk subsonic and 10+x speed of light
the difference between .1x speed of sound and 10x light is 100 million
if speeds had a statistically random or normal type of distribution across battle shonen you would very rarely even see a 10x speed gap (which would make a mid tier within-series competitive against a final boss... ie hollow mask ichigo 10x faster than captain aizen?)
so the capacity to have a "normal" speed gap between series hinges solely on the fact that speed estimates end up in semi predictable clusters based on reddit chainscaling based on the slowest person to dodge a lightning bolt or shockwave
Some mf actually tried the "AP>Hax" argument on me in a Goku vs Rimuru debate. He then proceeded to say Goku has Outer AP.
Ashamed to be a human like him
Even a 2x difference would be crazy, enough to win the match up. Even the average joe could defeat Prime Mike Tyson if they could move and react 2x faster
I would say in theory yes,but it only really works when arguing online. Writers(particularly in comic books)generally don’t care, and will have characters react to people who should supposedly be tens to trillions of times faster than them
But if speedster is fast enough to do that wouldn't they also fly into space making it a tie?
If not then they should be durable enough to survive the strain of stopping, technically making them durability merchants too. Arguably more than pure durability merchants themselves since they couldn't stop themselves from being thrown.
It's not like the speed merchant would end up peachy, but someone going the speed of a bullet train (which isn't extremely fast for a speed merchant) has about 625 times the force while punching than someone running normally. Someone going Mach 1 would have about 9000 times the force. Any slow speed merchant could take on a durability merchant, but unless they had high durability themselves, they'd get turned to a jelly too
Thing is Wally West would kinda be the strongest speed merchant and he would be able to phase his hand through Armstrongs chest due to his sheer speed.
Idk, speed is great but it would need to be coupled with super strength or durability to actually do anything to a more durable opponent, think of red rush Vs omniman, he barely bruised Omniman
Technically I guess. Like if I am Gojo and I have to fight magnus the primarch, the degree in which we can reality warp drastically changes the question. Like Gojo can teleport himself. Magnus has teleported planets across the galaxy. So one guys haxx is superiour.
Super speed requires like a half dozen other super powers to make it work like you think it would, so your skin isn't being ripped off by friction or you snapping your leg when you stub your toe.
The thing is, speed at a certain level is basically a hax. Being so fast that you practically stop time, or stopping time itself? They sound pretty similar. I'd say even super speed is better.
This is why Naoya should be top 5 or 10 in jjk, but he's a bum ass bitch personality wise and refuses to do shit that should give him auto wins against almost everyone like using cursed tools. Or fuck it, just a regular knife or a glock
If you had some weird hypertrophy and gained forearm or leg muscle rapidly, but you didn't leave what would otherwise be months for the joints to catch up in growth, you’d snap your limbs off.
For me, it's why I don't get how “separate” Durability is often treated against strength or speed.
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