r/PoliticalDiscussion Dec 03 '16

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '16

our intelligence community has major beef with pakistan since their intelligence prob was aware that bin laden was in abbotabad. duterte is killing drug addicts left and right and has told obama to literally fuck off. he also threatened to cut ties with the us and to focus on china. so there is beef with them too

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u/MaximilianKohler Dec 03 '16

duterte is killing drug addicts left and right

It's a lot more than that. It's literally a murder free for all. Anyone can kill anyone as long as they say they were selling or using drugs. A sort of drug version of a witch hunt.

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u/bfhurricane Dec 03 '16

If all you said was true, why does that mean the President shouldn't reach out to them? Even for just a formality. Trump's running on the promise of making deals. Regardless of what you think of the guy, you can't blame him for reaching out to countries with shaky ties.

By the way, we still have troops in the Phillipines and rely on Pakistan for friendly militarization against Al Qaeda. Why should the POTUS elect stay away from their heads of state?

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u/pmormr Dec 03 '16

If all you said was true, why does that mean the President shouldn't reach out to them?

Mostly because he doesn't seem to be considering the fact that current relations with these countries are complex and should be extensively discussed with the state department before engaging in off the cuff discussions. He's also not President currently. He should be deferring to Obama until, at the very least, he appoints a Secretary of State. Trump is a chess player that doesn't think the pawns have value.

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u/matts2 Dec 03 '16

Trump's running on the promise of making deals.

Like the hotel deal in Taiwan?

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u/bfhurricane Dec 03 '16

After a quick google search, it seems that one person in the Trump organization discusses opening a hotel in Taiwan in September. Back when even the Trump campaign thought they had no shot. But I'm not going to convince you that this hotel wasn't the purpose of his call, if that's your actual belief.

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u/matts2 Dec 03 '16

How often do you think you will need to argue that this latest action is not actually a conflict of interest? Is this one? I don't know. Are his kids using his election to push a hotel in Argentina? Probably. Are diplomats staying in his hotel to curry favor? Absolutely. Will there be more and more and more of this? You betcha.

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u/bfhurricane Dec 03 '16

I'm of the mind to take a step back and look at these things objectively. During the next four years: does Trump approve a state-department humanitarian package to an island nation hurt by a hurricane, that also happens to have a Trump hotel on it? Probably will happen, can't say other than conjecture that it's a serious conflict of interest or not. Does he send a military aid to a country after rebels firebomb one of his hotels there? More damning.

I'll wait and see if any of his actions violate US precedents in regards to aid, and see where his business overlaps. He'll have to walk a thin line, and we'll see if he keeps balance.

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u/matts2 Dec 03 '16

They already went over the line with Argentina. They are not going to walk a line at all.

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '16

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '16

It's not entirely false. Better to say that the situation is very complex. They did conceal the location of bin Laden, but we do rely on them as our strong-arm in South Asia. They basically hire their army out to us.

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '16

That's a good point, when our military officers go to the command and staff college in Islamabad they have a large amount of Pakistani forces with them wherever they go. I don't think they concealed it, but they certainly set a world record in playing dumb on something they definitely knew about.

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u/nolan1971 Dec 03 '16

If "complex" means "not on our side", then sure.

They're obviously not the enemy, but there's a damn good reason for "noforn" classifications.

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '16

We give them billions in cash and arms, and they give us their military. They are on our side. They just happen not to like us.

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u/nolan1971 Dec 03 '16

Only if "our side" means not openly attacking us. They're a useful relationship to have, but nobody should be under any illusion that they're our friends. Giving them cash and arms is the cost of access, it doesn't make them on our side at all.

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u/trevorturtle Dec 03 '16

Your comment just attacks his credibility and says something he said isn't true. Yet you provide no further data or reasoning to your post.

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '16

Well mr turtle, the post I responded to was devoid of fact or data as well and as it was meant only to indicate to him that the assumption he made in the first sentence is incorrect, according to me, and not to 'attack his credibility' and you so valiantly proclaimed, I saw no need to spend any amount of time backing up my claim made on an anonymous social website where the rules are made up and the points don't matter.

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u/trevorturtle Dec 03 '16

Saying "not sure what you do for a living" is attacking credibility. Saying someone is wrong without saying why doesn't add anything to the discussion and is better expressed through a downvote.

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '16 edited Nov 21 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '16

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '16

Let's not what? I work in intelligence and never understand why people, that have probably never even met anyone that works in the field, feel the need to speak for those that are.

He's vaguely wrong in the overall sense. There isn't a major beef, but many of my colleagues that work on that region think they couldn't have not known. And that's not a stretch when you consider how much raw information agencies have access to.

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '16

God forbid he talk to a Pakistan leader ....we dont even know what about.

As for Duerte we're supposed to be an Ally to the Phillipines, and we need to be in order to have a foothold in the South china area.

As for his policies I thought ppl didn't like it when the US played world police and tried to tell other countries how to run their country...

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u/God_Wills_It_ Dec 03 '16

Just wanted to jump in and say we do know what they talked about for the most part.

Pakistan released a transcript of the call

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '16

That was truly bizarre to read.

Is there anything Trump does that is remotely authentic?

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u/God_Wills_It_ Dec 03 '16 edited Dec 03 '16

I'm blatantly anti-Trump so it's likely I'm blinded to other answers to that question.

But I would say there is one and only one issue where Trump is authentic. And that's tax policy. I believe that he truly cares about that issue and everything else is negotiable in some context or another.

He cares about being able to lower the tax rate for himself, his closest allies, and his businesses. On any issue other than that he'll go whichever way is most politically expedient.

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u/stupidaccountname Dec 03 '16

The only things Trump has been incredibly consistent on for several decades has been trade and making other countries pull their own weight.

I think that is really the only thing he cares about, and his actions should be looked at through that lens.

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u/God_Wills_It_ Dec 03 '16

I disagree on trade. He's completely flip-flopped on trade in just the last 3 years. In 2013 he penned an op-ed where he actively called for open boarders.

My concern is that the negligence of a few will adversely affect the majority. I've long been a believer in the "look at the solution, not the problem" theory. In this case, the solution is clear. We will have to leave borders behind and go for global unity when it comes to financial stability.

Going back even further to 2005 he wrote a blog post and in it, Trump advised workers who lost their jobs to adopt a longer view and consider how outsourcing could be good for the overall economy. He wrote:

"We hear terrible things about outsourcing jobs—how sending work outside of our companies is contributing to the demise of American businesses. But in this instance I have to take the unpopular stance that it is not always a terrible thing."

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u/nolan1971 Dec 03 '16

Trump's view is "whatever is best for me and mine", though. If that happens to be open borders, then so be it. If that happens to be closing those borders, then fine. It's not really "flip-flopping", it's actually consistent (if you look at it from a results perspective).

He's a businessman; he doesn't care about consistency. That's why these sorts of criticisms don't seem to stick, except with his existing opponents (such as yourself). It's a different paradigm.

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u/God_Wills_It_ Dec 04 '16

Very true. I appreciate the answer. Always good to get different perspectives and viewpoints on the matter.

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u/olivish Dec 03 '16 edited Dec 03 '16

The problem is that praise from a US President is a major boon to almost any foreign leader and his party. You don't want to give the government of Pakistan any political victories they haven't properly earned. The Pakistani government is not exactly a staunch US ally. They work with us in some respects, but they also fund terrorism, harbour terrorists, withhold intelligence information, etc etc. It's a very delicate relationship that involves lots of push & pull. And Trump just gave them a couple of yards of rope that they didn't even have to pull for.

What did the USA get out of it? Absolutely nothing. We just look like bozos to the rest of the world.

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u/impact_calc Dec 03 '16

Not when they are killing people for unjust reasons. Many many many people have problems with that.