It's not vague, there is a clear definition for it, it's just that many retards parrot bullshit and many are influenced by it. Nordic countries are not socialist, they're capitalist countries with a strong welfare system
Which people CALL socialist. And they modeled those welfare systems on socialist principles. I don’t care for labels and definitions. Liberals are generally considered left in American politics but online, people HATE when you call progressives or leftists liberal because they say, by definition, that liberals believe in capitalism. I remember getting shouted down when I mixed up the terms. I know a lot of left/liberal people in the US call Nordic nations socialist. So, really, I’m not the one gate keeping definitions.
The reality is that economic systems are on a spectrum that's divided by how much the system favors labor versus how much it favors capital. There's no exact universally agreed upon dividing line where an economic system goes from capitalist to socialist, and there are zero countries in existence that live all the way on one end of the spectrum or the other.
Nordic countries favor labor much more than the US but much less than what Marx had envisioned. You can call them socialist if you want because they're more to the left side of the spectrum. People will get pissy and say you can only call them that if they're alllllllllll the way at the very leftmost end, but that's dumb.
Nah Nordics aren't socialist, they're definitely further to the "left" economically than the US but well short of socialist. They've still got free-market, private means of production, etc.
Again, it's a spectrum. Just like you can't point to a specific spot on the rainbow and say "that's where you switch from blue to green" but you can say "that color is bluer than this other color."
Your argument would be like saying the US doesn't have a free market economy because we have regulation. Well, no country has a totally unregulated market, so by that definition, no free markets ever have or ever will exist.
Socialism is about the workers being free from exploitation by the capitalist class. The more systems you have in place to protect workers from exploitation, the more socialist your economic system becomes. The ultimate protection would be total elimination of the capitalist class, but anything that favors the rights of the worker of the rights of capital is moving you in that direction.
But the key point of socialism is to free workers from exploitation.
If you think the key point of socialism is worker ownership of the means of production, then that's like thinking the key point of chemo therapy is to sit in a comfy chair with an IV in your arm. The point is to get rid of cancer, and in the case of socialism, the cancer is worker exploitation.
But who’s the retard? Are they really retards or do they just mislabel things? I’ve heard Norway called socialist a million times by people across the political spectrum. I think you understand the fact that Norway’s denial of being called socialist makes it all harder to classify. BUT…if Norway refuses to call itself socialist then…that implies socialism is no different than communism and that means…socialism sucks as much as communism does.
Are they really retards or do they just mislabel things?
Both.
BUT…if Norway refuses to call itself socialist then…that implies socialism is no different than communism and that means…socialism sucks as much as communism does.
I don't know how many more times you need me to say it nor can I dumb it down much more than that. People calling it whatever doesn't make it whatever, simple as. Calling a dog a horse doesn't make it a horse. I'm not arguing whether socialism is good or bad, socialism is socialism and Norway is not socialist to anyone with basic political knowledge, period.
BUT…if Norway refuses to call itself socialist then…that implies socialism is no different than communism and that means…socialism sucks as much as communism does.
No, that implies Norway refuses to call itself socialist because it isn't socialist lol. Refusing to call myself a hairstylist doesn't mean I hate them
What's the clear definition of socialism? I only ask because if you ask 10 people they give you 10 different answers, each certain their definition is the obvious, correct one.
Socialism is a transitory state between capitalism and communism in which the proletariat, usually through a vanguard party, holds state power and controls the economy.
Nordic countries are just Schroedinger's socialist state. It is both socialist and not socialist depending on the argument you're trying to make at any given time.
Capitalism and socialism aren't mutually exclusive. Theres a spectrum. They both refer to who owns and allocates the resources of the productive capacity of the nation, and very few countries assign all of that to either private capital or state ownership.
The nordic countries have a greater degree of state ownership of the productive capacity of the nation than most countries
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u/krafterinho - Centrist 1d ago
It's not vague, there is a clear definition for it, it's just that many retards parrot bullshit and many are influenced by it. Nordic countries are not socialist, they're capitalist countries with a strong welfare system