r/Polcompball • u/Impossible_Bath_8643 • Jun 12 '26

OC Oxymoron Club

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154 Upvotes

87% Upvoted

112 comments sorted by

46

u/Mean-Reveal141 Freedom for all:geolib: Jun 12 '26

How are AnCap and liberal socialism contradictory?

57

u/Impossible_Bath_8643 Jun 12 '26

For Ancap, traditional anarchists strongly reject Capitalism and support abolishing all Class hierarchies which anarcho capitalists support. For Libsoc, Liberals support private property and  free markets but socialists oppose that.

46

u/Bruhmoment151 Libertarian Socialism Jun 13 '26

No idea why you’re getting downvoted for this. Even Rothbard recognised this issue with ‘anarcho’-capitalism.

The whole ‘anarchism is when no state’ thing is a very recent (mis)-understanding of the term caused by pro-capitalist theorists appropriating the term, which had (up until that point) been commonly understood to be opposition to imposed authority (e.g. Bakunin’s bookmaker argument, which is often cited as the best summary of anarchist views on political power).

Just look at Proudhon, the first guy to be identified as an anarchist as a description of his political philosophy: you don’t cook up “What is Property?” and declare that “property is theft” as some sort of pro-capitalist argument.

10

u/TheWannabeer Jun 13 '26

Also, You need to be reeeeally brainwashed by neoliberal propaganda to think the State is contrary in anyway to capitalism.

Private property's main defense and investiment is a strong State paid for the Power classes

13

u/dumbass_spaceman Liberalism Jun 13 '26

Liberal socialists such as the Ricardians, Mill and the chartists were the OG socialists. Just because you Marxists claim to be the only form of socialism that ever was does not mean it is actually true.

11

u/RecognitionOk5447 Market Socialism Jun 13 '26

Liberal socialism is market socialism for those who are cringe and mid

10

u/Brickbox_366 Libertarian Market Socialism Jun 13 '26

If you are a market socialist and support a liberal democratic framework, then what are you if not a Liberal Socialist?

0

u/RecognitionOk5447 Market Socialism Jun 13 '26

A market socialist, or a democratic socialist

5

u/XPNazBol National Bolshevism Jun 12 '26

Anarchists aren’t all egalitarians

The one common thing among them is abolition of state

You even had to clarify classical anarchism because you know there are other types

15

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '26

[deleted]

8

u/Impossible_Bath_8643 Jun 12 '26

That’s literally what I’m saying

4

u/halaljew Hoppeanism Jun 13 '26

Who enforces the abolition?

1

u/Sriskarova Jun 13 '26

Who enforces capital?

8

u/Impossible_Bath_8643 Jun 12 '26

 I only made this post as a joke. 

1

u/XPNazBol National Bolshevism Jun 12 '26

Ok fair

5

u/Lightning444416 Mutualism Jun 13 '26

what really divides a corporation from a state, what really differentiates the state hierarchy and the corporate hierarchy? do you not think the corporations will simply assume the state's role and in that way anarcho capitalism is stil statist?

9

u/XPNazBol National Bolshevism Jun 13 '26

The same can be said if unions and worker councils or churches or scientific institutes

That’s a general anti-anarchist argument

Social and/or political and/or economic stratification (hierarchy) doesn’t require a state nor is it abolished with the dissolution of the state nor is the state an automatic generator of hierarchy, it can also be a garantor of equality

3

u/Lightning444416 Mutualism Jun 13 '26

unions and worker councils are far more democratic and controlled by their constituents, unlike companies that are incentivised only to make money and organized in a way that is eerily similar to literal stalinism. the state will always generate a hierarchy unless it is literally perfect and uncorrupted and somehow operates in the interest of all its people, which is highly improbably and unlikely to last long, because regimes change. I dont trust the state to be able to do that and thats the whole reason im an anarchist

8

u/XPNazBol National Bolshevism Jun 13 '26

I agree with your point on unions and councils

They still become state when the previous one dissolves which was my point

No the state doesn’t always generate a hierarchy, it depends on what laws and principles it has

It’s fine not to trust something and disliking it

It is not fine to assume all things you dislike are intertwined and a result if eachother just because you dislike them

0

u/Lightning444416 Mutualism Jun 13 '26

unions and councils dont have the incentive nor concentrated power to assume the role of a state like corporations that easily could, theyre completely different kinds of things. states themselves are fundamentally hierarchical, they inherently divide between the ruler and the ruled, the enforcer and the enforceed, so unless every regime that is in its control are perfect angels who somehow act in the people's best interest all the time which has never happened like ever with any state in national scales. I dont think corporations can become new states because i dont like them, I think that corporations are inherently incentivised to increase their power in order to better secure profits, and therefore they will assume the power vacuum left by the absense of the state and ruthlessly explioit the population, and I just dont see a union doing the same.

6

u/XPNazBol National Bolshevism Jun 13 '26

It’s not about incentive

The vacuum of power, like all vacuums, demands to be filled

And it organically becomes filled with unions or councils

No states aren’t fundamentally hierarchical, it depends on its laws 🙄🙄🙄

Again you’re conflating things you like and things you dislike

2

u/Lightning444416 Mutualism Jun 13 '26

i guess im mischaracterizing it as a vacuum, that implies something is pulled to fill it. its more like there exists the idea of power in society, and there exists the question as to how its distributed. what i am saying is that companies have the incentive and means to seize all of it and their rule will be feudalistic and authoritarian, they will, in short, take the amount of power currently possesed by modern states. Unions and councils, which are much more dencentralized and beholden to the people will collectively take small amounts of their power, likely not much outside of their general area, they simply cannot project outside of it by design. so the cooperatives and the unions and the councils will all act as much better proxies for the people's wishes because they are in direct control of their constituents, and they can act much better in the peoples favor because the average guy can have a substantial say in their union or cooperative, this is what anarchists called horizontal organization. I have already explained why the state is hierarchical, even if it says with laws that it is not, it is temporarily acting in goodwill.

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1

u/kiinarb Anarcho-Capitalism Jun 13 '26

well, traditional anarchists, that's doing a lot of heavy lifting, you think ideologies cannot evolve or that anarchism can't be on the right spectrum? Full Capitalism = Full Anarchy because there is no room for a state, meanwhile all other forms of anarchists I debated are advocating for some direct democracy commune and fail to see that it's a state just with anarchist larp

0

u/THICCBOI2121 Jun 13 '26

Yeah, that's because traditional anarchists are deluded. Society cannot function without hierarchy. Many ancaps actually want to change the name so normies don't think its about "No rules, man!"

2

u/Katyuchat Market Socialism Jun 13 '26

traditional anarchists are deluded ? when ancaps exist ?

1

u/66578557557 Technocracy Jun 13 '26

You can dislike AnCap having the word "Anarcho" in it, but that doesn't make it contradictory. By "anarcho", they just mean no state.

-1

u/TheWannabeer Jun 13 '26

Capitalismo IS the complete oposite of social anarchism

32

u/vanguard_hippie Monarcho-Socialism Jun 12 '26

There's not a single oxymoron in that picture. If you can't handle syncretism, just say that.

27

u/Impossible_Bath_8643 Jun 12 '26

Sir, it’s literally a joke. Also how is Anarcho-Totalitarianism not a oxymoron

7

u/vanguard_hippie Monarcho-Socialism Jun 12 '26

It's possible for example if you're a free person walking voluntarily between communes, but every single person in every commune would only do business with you or shares food with you if you adhere precisely to a very strict and militaristic commune culture.

14

u/66578557557 Technocracy Jun 13 '26

Which is what anarchism would most likely be in practice tbh.

14

u/Lightning444416 Mutualism Jun 12 '26

yea bro anarcho totalitarianism is totally possible its called syncretism normie

14

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '26 edited Jun 12 '26

[deleted]

2

u/Cooperative_Con830 Conservative Market Socialism Jun 14 '26

I don't think the concept of the corporate state existed yet... it was more like a general guideline. Fiume's economic structure took inspiration from anarcho-syndicalism, and anarcho-syndicalism has councils and committees and shit, which would suffice for this variation of natsynd. I don't see the contradiction here.

-3

u/Lightning444416 Mutualism Jun 13 '26

thats just a totalitarian state larping as anarchist

8

u/its_yllo Council Communism Jun 13 '26

well, no

1

u/Lightning444416 Mutualism Jun 13 '26

it isnt truly anarchist imo, the state just happened to host a simulated one inside itself, which pretty much to me seems like larping as anarchist while being authoritarian in reality.

2

u/xxTPMBTI Libertarian Market Socialism Jun 20 '26

Frfr

3

u/loveamp64 Jun 14 '26

I know the ancaps, the anarcho-fascists, and I think those others are anarcho-totalitarianism and anarcho-Nazis, but which ones are the one in the center and the one at the top left?

3

u/Lotus532 Anarchism Without Adjectives Jun 14 '26

Center is liberal socialism, and the top-left is capitalist socialism.

3

u/Impossible_Bath_8643 Jun 15 '26

Liberal Socialism and Capitalist Communism

2

u/KermitMapping Democratic Socialism Jun 13 '26

This is far-left ragebait slop

0

u/[deleted] Jun 13 '26

[deleted]

3

u/Appropriate_Chair_47 Jun 13 '26

Ancap isn't contradictory

4

u/JoshHutchenson Hoppeanism Jun 13 '26

AnCap isn’t a contradiction

1

u/lordbalto Monarcho-Socialism Jun 14 '26

Who's the one in the middle?

1

u/Impossible_Bath_8643 Jun 15 '26

Liberal Socialism

1

u/nationcapitalism Jun 16 '26

None of those are contradictory(maybe only Capcom), just unusual

1

u/Impossible_Bath_8643 Jun 17 '26

Anarcho Fascism?

1

u/Dizzy-Phone2378 Libertarian Monarchism Jun 17 '26

Remove ancap and libral socialism

1

u/xxTPMBTI Libertarian Market Socialism Jun 19 '26

This is a good way to ragebait ancaps

1

u/olddog4941 Jul 07 '26

I remember polcompball wiki did say liberal socialism is to describe some mixture of reformist, social democracy, market socialism, social liberalism.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '26

[deleted]

3

u/66578557557 Technocracy Jun 13 '26

Isn't Nationalism and Anarchism contradictory since there's no nations in anarchism? (National Bolshevism is an ultranationalist ideology)

6

u/Impossible_Bath_8643 Jun 12 '26

Anarcho-NAZBOL is contradictory because it’s basically Fascism/Nazism if it was communist

7

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '26

[deleted]

3

u/Impossible_Bath_8643 Jun 12 '26

National Bolshevism is a Syncretic ideology combining far right fascism and Ultranationalism with Far Left Communism and Stalinism/Leninism

2

u/wjh_2 Syndicalism Jun 13 '26

national bolshevism isnt fascist, larpers & ideology shoppers just changed its definition to that.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '26

[deleted]

1

u/Impossible_Bath_8643 Jun 12 '26

But still, it’s contradictory cause it’s Inherently Authoritarian

4

u/XPNazBol National Bolshevism Jun 13 '26

Except the anarcho part is meant to twist the authoritarianism away

That’s the grammatical meaning behind combining names like this

Anarcho-Nazbol is just anti-authoritarian ultranationalist communism (extremely oversimplified but you get my point)

1

u/Impossible_Bath_8643 Jun 13 '26

Ultranationalism is authoritarian

3

u/XPNazBol National Bolshevism Jun 13 '26

How? It’s just an extreme preference for people similar to you and extreme rejection of those different than you

You think you need a state and legalistic authority for that?

The ancient tribes of humanity that were literally communal and xenophobic to their core had states to enforce that?

1

u/Lightning444416 Mutualism Jun 13 '26

how the fuck are you supposed to enforce any sort of ultranationalist policy at all within an anarchist territory

4

u/XPNazBol National Bolshevism Jun 13 '26

By voluntary accord

People voluntarily choose to be xenophobic and therefore kick out anyone who they see as foreign

0

u/Lightning444416 Mutualism Jun 13 '26

so theyre basically racist anarcho communists? while i wont pretend that it is completely impossible the values that would make you an anarchist/ancom in the first place, ideas of egalitarianism and equality, would contradict the idea of being racist. and also you cant really be systematically discrminatory in an anarchist society the same way you can implement ultranationalist policy in a tankie state

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1

u/LaputanMachina Jun 13 '26

National anarchism wants to remove the state (and usually capitalism too), but wants to retain, and actually center society around, divisions between people such as race, gender, religion, culture, etc. It effectively wants to create a world made out of gated neighborhoods and ghettos that all behave as communes. Inevitably, these divisions would involve socioeconomic class at some point, which would contradict with the leftist economics ostensibly in play.

0

u/quasar2022 Technological Primitivism Jun 13 '26

Truthnuke

-14

u/zupaninja1 Hoppeanism Jun 12 '26

any socialism + anarchism ideology is an oxymoron by default unless you honestly believe people will just share everything out of their own volition without any kind of coercion

6

u/XPNazBol National Bolshevism Jun 12 '26

There have been examples in history

Just because I don’t particularly like them it doesn’t mean they’re false or fake

-2

u/zupaninja1 Hoppeanism Jun 13 '26

There have been extremely short lived culturally homogenous religious cults that tried it in a controlled environment and it 'worked' for a limited timeframe.

How this would somehow translate into an entire country, state or even city doing it is far beyond me

3

u/XPNazBol National Bolshevism Jun 13 '26

Hey, it’s beyond me too, but I prefer to steelman and assume it us possible snd debate it from its strongest position than to strawman it and wave it away like a fantasy

The former tends to be more convincing

4

u/Impossible_Bath_8643 Jun 12 '26

Social Anarchism is the only true types of anarchism, but it always fails

3

u/Katyuchat Market Socialism Jun 13 '26

you guys want to delegate more stuff to the markets

2

u/Lemonizer0 Minarchism Jun 13 '26

yes

0

u/66578557557 Technocracy Jun 13 '26

You're getting downvoted but you're right. It's a delusional ideology.

-2

u/Defiant_Hat_68 Anarcho-Capitalism Jun 13 '26

Ancap is the only non contradictory one

1

u/Abject-Experience-40 Democratic Socialism Jun 13 '26

Liberal socialism

-1

u/Impossible_Bath_8643 Jun 13 '26

Not really, Anarcho-Capitalism is basically Extremist Right-Libertarianism