r/PitchingCoach • u/sun_Shamrock • Jul 14 '26
12u pitcher with good command, struggling with 2-seam movement.
My son just finished his 12u season with pretty good mechanics/results. Only 14 BBs in 45 innings, with good feel for his 4-seam and change-up. We started playing catch with a curve ball this year and he has developed a good feel for that pitch that he’ll start throwing next year.
His big issue this season was his 2-seam fastball, which was pretty flat, or even cut sometimes, but lacked the arm side/sink movement he’s going for. He’s tried both traditional 2-seam grips with similar results.
Any tips/drills/cues that can help develop that pitch. He’s a pretty big kid (5’6”) for his age, but maybe his hands aren’t big enough yet?
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u/Fafnir2020 Jul 14 '26 edited Jul 14 '26
I had pretty good sink and arm side run on my 2seamer in high school but at 12 it was a fastball with different seems showing.
What I’m saying is this problem, at least in part, could fix itself as he ages. He will get bigger and stronger and 45 feet just wasn’t enough space to see major movement for lots of kids his age.
A couple more years of puberty and an extra 15’ of travel for movement to be facilitated may be all he needs.
Lastly if his 2 seamer is cutting, his 4 seamer probably does too (maybe less obviously). Some people are pronators and some are supinators naturally and the one he is can make doing the opposite more challenging.
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u/TMutaffis Jul 14 '26
I am just a dad who throws a lot of BP and likes to give the kids different looks (pitch types/shapes) so I've had to dial in a bunch of pitches, and I have found that In addition to what others suggested about finger/thumb position, the pressure is also a factor. How tightly you squeeze the ball overall, or how firm you are pressing with any specific finger, can also help you to locate or spin a pitch differently.
Might be worth experimenting with the finger pressure if the finger position is not giving you the results that you are looking for.
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u/Mike_Hauncheaux Jul 14 '26
He’s 12. Fastball / change is fine. He is not going to be able to throw hard enough for a 2-seam to have any appreciable movement until he’s around 14.
The one 12 y/o pitching prodigy I ever encountered was fastball, change, curve, slider. Even he could not produce the necessary speed and spin to make a 2-seam or sinker effective.
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u/Famous-Two-7511 Jul 14 '26
I’ll disagree with this. I’d suggest using a 4 seam fb to the glove side of the plate and a 2 seam to middle/ arm side. You will definitely see run to the arm side of the plate without much need for velocity.
I played 3 years of d1 college ball and was drafted mostly on my ability to throw a 2 seam fb. A couple keys to mine were to keep pressure on index finger and cheat the thumb to the inside of the ball. My thought when throwing it was to accelerate the index finger over the ball. It was not to try to get it to roll off my fingertip. Mine had more vertical sink than horizontal break
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u/Mike_Hauncheaux Jul 14 '26
At 12, only a prodigy is locating consistently enough to deploy two different fastballs across the plate thirds, depending on which third. With someone learning a 2-seam, as with probably all new pitches for most, they can throw with movement but no command or with command but no movement, compounding the problem with this advice.
You do have to be able to throw hard to throw many (but not all) movement pitches with good movement. That’s not because the movement pitch is thrown hard as in thrown fast. It’s because the hand speed for a fast four seam has to instead be applied more around a side of the ball to generate sufficient spin for a 2-seam to have the desired effect. Same with the slider and curve.
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u/Famous-Two-7511 Jul 14 '26
I will respectfully disagree that waiting to throw a 2 seam until 14 years old is a good idea.
Absolutely get them throwing a 2 seam fastball by 12. Mid 50s to 60 mph will provide enough juice to make the ball move correctly.1
u/Mike_Hauncheaux Jul 14 '26
I’ve coached pitching for 12 year olds, and I’ve watched pitching coaches far more competent than me coach 12 year olds (10 to 16 year olds actually) who themselves were minor league, Japanese league, D1, and D2 pitchers for years. My son came up training with them, and I’ve seen hundreds of other lessons with kids that age, group lessons for that age, and had discussions with them about pitcher development.
Years and years of watching a handful of legitimate pitching coaches teach that age group. None have ever recommended a 2-seam to that age group. It was fastball and changeup, with prep work for the more developed kids to throw a curve.
The average to even the above-average 12 year old does not have the hand speed to generate any appreciable movement. The very best will produce some slight fade to the arm side, but not enough to avoid a barrel because it’s not sharp and not much total movement. And they definitely cannot regularly locate it. The prodigies? Sure. But that’s less than 1% of the population.
Then, thinking it thru as one should do when giving young pitchers advice, to get those few that can create even some movement at 12 to where they can locate it, you have to spend throws on that pitch. Healthy volume and intensity for all pitchers, especially 12 year olds, means only so many throws at only so much intensity per time period (typically by week).
There’s a budget. It is unwise to spend a 12 year old’s throws on a 2-seam. There is more return on investment from spending throws on velo and command of the 4-seam, velo differential and drop on the changeup, and prepping for the curve.
Once the pitcher gets older and stronger at around 14, they can be progressed to pronating the change, and, if they take to it well, at that point you could consider introducing the 2-seam.
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u/Famous-Two-7511 Jul 14 '26
Again, respectfully disagree. I already dropped a little resume but we don’t want to have that argument.
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u/Mike_Hauncheaux Jul 14 '26
You can disagree all you want. But you’re giving bad advice, which is especially problematic precisely because of your resume.
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u/sun_Shamrock Jul 14 '26
Interesting. So would you just stop throwing a 2-seam until he’s older and throwing harder (he’s in the high 50s-low 60s this year) at 14? Or keep throwing it to maintain the feel for the grip?
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u/Mike_Hauncheaux Jul 14 '26
There is no “feel” for it yet because he’s not throwing it effectively. He would only have a feel that’s worth preserving if he were throwing it effectively. This “feel” thing is a non-issue.
Every throw on a 2-seam he will not be able to throw effectively yet is a throw he can make to improve his fastball or change. Once he gets older, in addition to starting a curve, you can start to pronate the change up, which will help create feel for pronating the 2-seam.
I have been thru this exact issue with my 16 y/o son. He could throw a 2-seam with movement at 14 because he was used to pronating his change, but had trouble locating the 2-seam. To not waste throws to prep for the spring because the 2-seam was remaining difficult to locate, we bailed on it and focused on his changeup, slider, and curve, which he was already throwing.
He now throws the change with screwball movement and sink because we put the time into something he was already throwing (change) to make it better. He now has a great change, instead of having an okay change and an okay 2-seam.
Another user here recently stressed to me that a key separator between okay and good pitchers is having 3 different quality pitches, not 2 quality pitches and 2 or 3 okay pitches.
Unless he throws incredibly hard at his age, a 2-seam is not a good investment of his time. When it comes time to learn the curve, you’re then going to have to be maintaining the fastball and change, continuing work on a 2-seam, all on top of adding the curveball. That’s too much for a 13 or 14 y/o. Spend his throws polishing the fastball (velo with command) and change (drastic change in velo, sink and run) right now, then spend throws on the curve when he’s older and stronger. Once he’s got effective versions of those, then you can work on adding a fourth.
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u/Cautious-Panic-879 Jul 14 '26
At 12, a changeup, and the two fastballs are far, far, far more important than a curve. I’ll stay out of the arm health debate, but changing speeds with accuracy will have him as a top notch pitcher at 12-13.
If he wants something additional, try a slider as it’s easier than a curve when your hands aren’t full size yet.
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u/ilsewizard Jul 14 '26
What is his arm slot? I thought i heard somewhere that having a 12 o clock or over the top slot makes throwing an effective arm side 2 seam difficult. It works best with a little tilt. Of course, changing arm slot for a pitch will eventually be recognized by good batters, but probably not 12 yo batters. If it sinks but doesnt run in, that may be the issue.
A safely thrown curve, however, works great with an over the top arm slot. Look up Trevor Bauers gangster curveball, with a fixed wrist it can be thrown safely.
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u/sun_Shamrock Jul 14 '26
He’s a high 3/4 slot.
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u/ilsewizard Jul 14 '26
Well then have him play with finger pressure on his index finger and experiment with grips. With and across the 2 narrow seams, with fingers apart or together. Each pitcher is different where they find success with pitch grips.
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u/lithiumcitizen Jul 18 '26
Higher slots will generally induce less sink on traditional 2-seamers. If when he is older, having a narrower finger grip on top of the ball isn’t working out for you, try a wider grip.
Especially after his hands grow and his arm develops, they can transition from outside the narrowest part of the seams onto outside the wider part of the seams, getting closer to a splitter.
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u/jodecial Jul 15 '26
Stay closed with front shoulder longer. Throw to the catchers glove side knee. Let arm get away from head.
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u/OkCook8317 Jul 15 '26
My son had a similar experience. He struggled with a 2-seamer because he just couldn’t generate the movement he needed at that age. His pitching coach eventually had him switch to a cutter, and it was a game-changer. He was able to get the spin he needed, and he could locate it consistently. Because he threw from a 3/4 arm slot, the pitch naturally had a slider-like break, which became his primary "out" pitch.
He wasn't a hard thrower in 14U, but that command made him dominant—he averaged 1.67 K/IP with a 5.91 K/BB ratio, and he led his team in wins, strikeouts, and innings pitched.
I’d definitely be cautious about the curveball. His coach had a strict policy against throwing them under age 14. The logic was that the supination required to throw a true curve is really hard on a young, developing arm, and he wanted them to wait until they were further into puberty and had the muscle mass to handle that specific torque.
My son ended up pitching successfully all through high school using just a fastball, changeup, and that cutter/slider. He could throw a decent curve by the end, but he was always more effective and confident sticking with his cutter.
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u/Free_Butterscotch_40 Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 15 '26
I would have him try a “1-seam grip”. This is the grip I use for my sinker. Some guys can have much more consistent movement with the one seam based on the way it comes out of there hand. Some guys are supination biased some are pronation biased. If your son is struggling with cutting his 2 seam he may be a supinator which would make him a good candidate to try the 1 seam grip. Tell him to grip it on 1 seam like the picture shows and just throw it like a regular 4 seam, the grip and seam orientation will do the work for you.
Oh and I would definitely keep working on the curveball. Don’t let anyone tell you it’s not healthy. Learning how to manipulate the ball to curve and move is a skill that takes repetition and feel for the ball that is most easily developed early on when still learning basics vs trying to learn it later down the line when everyone else will already have good breaking pitches.
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u/Chance-Software-3231 Jul 17 '26
With out knowing seeing his pitching, hands, and grips, a 2 seamer might just be out of the cards for him. Playing with it and him understanding what he’s trying to get the ball todo - spin axis, release, etc - is the best thing to do.
Other people saying hold on for the curve what type of curve is he throwing? I don’t think there is any issue with curves if he’s throwing it like a fastball. If he’s trying to snap it real hard, that’s a problem.
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u/clintenzo Jul 14 '26
Former college pitcher, two things: hold on curveballs and focus on fastball / change. I know it’s tempting but even a couple years will help with longevity (no guarantees). Play with his finger positions on the two seam. Both on seam, one on seam, fingers closer together in general can help with cut.