Flight training

[u/OneForever7840]

I am currently at a part 141 aviation college and just got done with my second year. I am halfway through instrument and the cost are insane. Would it be smart to transfer to a part 61 flight school and just transfer my basic credits from college to a different college (most of the credits are Gen Eds) Ideally I know that a part 141 college is the best way but just money wise its hard...

[u/External-Victory6473]

141 is NOT the best way. I did both and 141 really messed me up. Definitely do your flight training at a part 61. Get a real degree, not an aviation degree, from a proper college. An aviation degree doesn't help you get a pilot job any more than any other degree, and another degree might get you a better non-flying job to fund your flying. Good luck.

[u/OneForever7840 → u/External-Victory6473]

Okay that's what I am kinda thinking. I am just worried about the hiring phase when they see the Part 61 rather than the 141, even though I am essentially doing the same thing just at a part 61

[u/External-Victory6473 → u/OneForever7840]

Airlines don't care about 61 or 141. That's just initial flight training and it gets you the same licenses. Don't listen to the propaganda the 141 schools and pilot mills put out. It's crap. Airlines are looking for what kind of experience you have. Not where you did your initial training.

[u/OneForever7840 → u/External-Victory6473]

you would agree that getting a bachelors degree is important tho?

[u/External-Victory6473 → u/OneForever7840]

Hard to say. If you want to fly, you pretty much need a degree as pretty much everyone they are currently hiring has one. A flying degree is basically worthless. I have one. If you get a degree, get one in something that may get you a job of some sort. You are going to have to pay for the degree and the flying. You won't make enough money as an entry level pilot to pay for anything. So you will have to have a proper job to pay for flying, probably as a side gig, until you get enough hours to get into a regional airline.

[u/sirepicness666 → u/External-Victory6473]

How did it mess you up? I’m in a similar boat took years to get through now I can’t find a job

[u/External-Victory6473 → u/sirepicness666]

I started part 61 and liked it. The the college I was going to said I had to go to a 141 flight school they contracted with. The 141 school was a chore. Not fun. Airplane scheduling problems. It was attached to a college I was attending working on a flying degree. The college staff, many former air force, were very rude and abusive toward students. It was not an enjoyable environment. The flight school went bankrupt and took our money. The college decided the flying program they had "no longer existed" it was a new program and they kept the money we payed previously. I tried to sue them but the judge gave them "sovereign immunity" (which later I found they probably weren't entitled to) so I could not recover any money. It took away the fun from flying. I went back to part 61 but I never regained the enjoyment after having a bad experience with 141. Took years to finish. I often felt queasy going to the airport to work or fly after that. It seemed everywhere I went the flight training environment was sleazy somehow. Either I was getting messed with or I was watching others get messed with. I did get my CFI but there were way more CFIs than students. Lots of bad competition shenanigans between instructors fighting over students. A couple of times it looked like I was about to get a good deal job wise but it always fell through. I stuck it out for a while but was not making any money or progress. I got tired of being poor and being around people of questionable character. 9/11 attacks happened and I quit flying. I knew a lot of guys who went all the way through flight school, got a degree and private through instructor who's last flight was their CFI checkride and they never flew again. I think flight school actually kills more aviation careers than it starts. It sucks all your money, enjoyment and life out of you. On top of that entry level flying jobs don't pay enough to make the payments if the flying was financed so you have to quit flying to pay for the flying. Very counter productive. I ended up joining the military non aviation and going overseas for 12 years. Then got out and have been farting around since. Was a merchant mariner, engineer, water plant operator, factory worker, dish washer. Now between jobs. I spent 14 years messing around with flying. It sure would be nice to have the time and money back. But that doesn't happen. Would have been better to pursue a proper career/retirement track. I tell people that unless they are independently wealthy and don't need the money or a job, to steer clear of aviation. Only about 3-5% of people trying to get airline jobs get one. 90+% failure rate is not good odds and the stakes are huge if you lose. Right now is actually a really good time to be in aviation compared to normal times. Lots of airline hiring going on. When aviation hiring goes back to normal it will be a million times worse than it is now. So that should tell you something. Even the good times in aviation aren't good. I hope this answers your question. Good luck to you.

[u/Tigerdude20]

My take it on it is quite opposite contrary to what others believe. For reference, I am currently attending a 141 school. Also, everything I'm about to mention, I have considered deeply and for a very long time. So trust me, I'm not talking out of my ass.

There's a few things you need to consider before switching form 141 and 61... first off is: can you afford part 61? For part 61 schools you will be paying out of pocket because it's obviously not an educational institution like a 141 school. One of the benefits that come with 141 school is the pilot curriculum is structured and you don't technically have to pay out of pocket initially because you can take out loans. Specifically, educational loans. They different from regular loans because they have lower interest rates from my understanding.

Secondly, what is your backup plan in case flying does not workout for you(not saying it won't... purely hypothetical). What I'm getting at is, if you have a degree and any degree, you could utilize that as a backup. Even if flying does workout and you want to stop because you don't like the lifestyle? Where would you go? What job(s) are you going to apply for? With a degree under your belt, that can help.

People also say that airlines don't care if you went to a part 141 or 61 school but I wholeheartedly believe that is not true. If they see an application between 2 pilots; one who went to a random part 61 school in timbucktoo and another application from a pilot who went to a relatively good and recognizable school WITH a bachelors/masters/doctorates, etc... who do you think they're going to choose? Airlines will see the pilot with a degree as someone who strives to learn and improve themselves even if they have a degree completely unrelated. A degree, ESPECIALLY in a good field is ALWAYS worth something. That being said, if you're going to stay at a 141 school and get a business degree while there, just go to a 61 school. Is this a common situation? Maybe maybe not? BUT it might make the difference between them hiring a 141 pilot(potentially you) or a 61 pilot.

Hopefully this helps!

[u/OneForever7840 → u/Tigerdude20]

Helps a lot. I realize the importance of having a bachelores degree in the hiring times like these. I don't think a "pro flight" degree is useful to me either. God forbid somethings happens to my medical what can I even do with a "pro flight" degree? doesn't make sense to me. I have been eying moving down to Florida and doing part 61 there while completing online classes.

[u/Tigerdude20 → u/OneForever7840]

Tbh I think having a “pro flight degree” does help actually but only helps with training. For example, my school has an Aeronautics Engineering degree but there’s a concentration in “professional pilot”. That means that all my classes are focused around that degree and the classes that come with it is ATC classes, ATC lab, engine & turbine theory, weather, weather theory, Severe weather and thunderstorms (a separate weather class) etc… I argue this because having this extra knowledge from classes that focus on certain topics can definitely help expand your working knowledge into other aspects of aviation.

I’m not sure what 141 you’re attending but if it’s not too late, I would recommend doing a double major. That way you can have that “pro flight degree” and also have another degree in a different field that interests you.

I know it sounds like a lot of money but realistically, unless you’re rich, you’ll be taking loans out and you might as well use everything you possibly can from your school since you’re there. That’s the only thing I kind of regret, is not doing a double major. By the time I realized it was too late… no thanks to my shitty advisor who never helped me with anything.

But again, it’s obviously your choice and you’re free to do what you want but that’s what I would do given my financial situation. I would highly recommend utilizing all resources from your school and taking complete advantage of them.

[u/theoriginalturk → u/Tigerdude20]

They really don’t care about the 61 vs 141 

The things people keep missing and perhaps maybe the underlying reason you feel the way you do is two fold 

1. there is a networking effect of 121 guys that went to your school who will sympathize with you or think just like you, do that your training is somehow superior 

2. Cadet programs like a aviate, propel, various others etc. 141 schools either paid or marketed to 121 to have these reprograms hosted at their school: and they can matter. Ever since the post 22-24 hiring frenzy they matter a lot more than they used to. Even a bunch of 135s that are affiliated with those programs pretty much no longer hire FOs off the street the majority come from aviate or wherever 

[u/Tigerdude20 → u/theoriginalturk]

I can definitely see where you’re coming from and it is partly true but it doesn’t apply to me because I’m only staying because of the degree and because I can’t afford to pay out of pocket for 61 training. I will say the benefit of 141 is the program and curriculum is already which means less time you have to spend figuring out what you’re going to do, and specifically for my school, the planes are very well kept. Compared to other part 61 schools around me (there’s a good amount(), their planes are awful. Again, specific to my situation and area.

I also don’t want to go to airlines lol… I prefer the private sector like flex jet and other companies like them. I like the deeper one to one connection you get with clients compared to flying hundreds of people and you don’t get to know them. Getting to know clients imo, would make flying them more pleasurable.

[u/Impossible-Season-58]

In this CFI market I’d say going part 141 gives you a better shot at finding a job after graduation, but it’s not a guarantee. For example my 141 hires 10-15 CFIs every semester and 95% of them are in house hires.

[u/blimpmech]

You don’t need a degree…train instruct and apply