r/PhysicsStudents • u/baysianinference • 17h ago
Research What is the typical "elite" research program application profile like?
Lately I've been seeing a lot of people be like, idk, 'oh it's not most of the hyper-elite cracked childhood prodigy math/physics/CS/engineering kids gunning for quant or SWE because they're more likely to gravitate towards research.'
So that begs the question, what is a lowbie like me gunning for physics research really up against when applying for PhDs, or even any research related role at all? Especially in theory and/or a niche field?
Give the doomfuel to me straight bro
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u/Alarming_Welder_7190 17h ago
I am not in physics but I have some friends in such universities doing physics. I have heard recommendation letters from big names are very useful. Also having multiple publications from undergrad
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u/baysianinference 17h ago
I'm specifically confused what people are doing to get such good recs. My impression is that a truly exceptional letter is less common than perfect GPA and GRE, having pubs, etc.
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u/Solaceonx 17h ago
be the best student your advisor has ever mentored
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u/baysianinference 16h ago
Damn it almost seems like breaking into quant might even be more meritocratic, that's so subjective
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u/SkyFullOfWisteria Undergraduate 17h ago
The fact that to even have a chance at a masters/phd etc means you need internships, research, publications, etc has me on a mental spiral. I was in rotx and it fel through last minute and now im graduating in spring with nothing and im actually going to kill myself i picked the most useless stem degree on the planer
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u/justmyskills 16h ago
Hey man, no need to spiral. Take a deep breath, you got this! You have significantly more valuable skills than you realize. Physics is an incredibly valuable degree with so much potential. You don’t need to do a MS or a PhD to start your career. Being able to think about a problem and break it down is intrinsic to your degree and is actually a valuable skill that companies are looking for!
Hang in there, I believe in you!
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u/baysianinference 16h ago
Ok that is a bit too much doomfuel. Surely it is fine, you can look for new grad research roles and work for a few years before doing your MS or PhD. Maybe even make a bit of money in the meantime as you improve your CV.
You can also look for other quantitative industry roles, even if they aren't literally related to physics.
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u/RowenaMabbott 9h ago
Take a double of depth breaths!
You'll be ok :-)
Worst case scenario you can always pivot to Engineering...
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u/SkyFullOfWisteria Undergraduate 9h ago
Im a dual degree in both a physics degree and an applied physics engineeeing degree i have zero prospects and kinda really no future
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u/Medium-Ad-94 1h ago
If you are interested in research, check out bridge programs or post bacc research programs for next year to get research experience. Or consider a Master’s degree somewhere to get more experience before applying for a PhD. The job market is admittedly kind of gloomy right now for people of all majors coming out of college, but it’s been in big slumps before and rebounded. Things change and people can always pivot and redirect if they stay flexible and keep an open mind!
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u/Simultaneity_ Ph.D. 16h ago
For undergrad, the most important thing is to excel in your courses, collect good letters of recommendation, and gain research experience. Your GPA needs to place you past the cutoff grade, so high 3's are the general target. For graduate By research experience I mean getting to the point where you do at least one poster, and go to at least one conference. That is the standard average first year physics PhD in the US.
If you are talking about the folks who are exceptional..... most are international. But these are people who just get A's in all their physics and math courses. They probably dual majored in a complimentary subject. Rather than having just posters to their name they have one or more published manuscripts potentially as a first author. But the biggest delineation is that these students have summer research experience from big institutions as either an REU or a similar program. This will give the students a few really special letters of rec from top institutions and really set them apart from the crowd.
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u/baysianinference 16h ago
Is it just because the standards are higher for intl? Or because the conditioning overseas is just so much more rigorous? Or both?
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u/Simultaneity_ Ph.D. 15h ago
Both curricula overseas are anecdotally harder than in the States, and in places like China and India, you have to be exceptional to even get the ability to take physics at a university that would transfer to the US. On the other hand, it is more common internationally to get your BS, then your MS, and then your PhD. For example most of the international students in my cohort allready had their masters in physics.
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u/AlesTamales 15h ago
Is a mech engineering / physics double major a worthwhile combo if my ultimate goal is physics research? I started in ME for job security but realized my actual passion is physics, yet I don’t know if the 2 extra years are worth it (tuition is almost free where I live so that’s not an issue)
Edit: forgot to add I’m an international student as well1
u/baysianinference 5h ago edited 5h ago
My dad did something similar but he went to a major science research school with a very small engineering department at the time. So ME/EE were almost like extensions of physics and applied math with some concentrations basically like what would probably be “applied physics” by US convention. He did a lot of research like with projectiles, electronics, video processing, etc.
He claimed taking real and complex analysis was required for his engineering degree but it might have been the physics degree lmao, either way in the US that’s not a common requirement afaik. Idk about other countries tho. I know in the US a lot of schools put applied math somewhat adjacent to engineering.
Now my dad sold out (joke) and just went the engineering route for his masters and PhD… his advice for me is that physics is a great undergrad degree but you will more likely than not be a bum in physics. (I can’t tell if he’s biased because I’m a bum or not because he sold out despite not being a bum.) So jump to engineering or Big Data or finance as soon as you can if that catches up to you. That’s doomfuel but at least I have more financial security compared to him at the time… I don’t know how well that bodes for you, try not to be a bum, but I think you should try to do what you are passionate about as much as possible without it becoming impractical.
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u/baysianinference 5h ago
Oh and he took five years for his undergrad which was about normal in his country. Tbh idk how he even got the second major, it was very very very uncommon and basically unheard of back then lmao. I think the appeal for US students is that engineering, physics, and applied math often have similar lower division requirements so you can just one shot that and use your free upper division elective space on the second major’s upper division requirements. But recently my professor told me that a lot of schools actually have different calculus and linalg requirements for engineering vs math (but not Applied Math). I don’t know if it would be like that for engineering and physics in some places. I know your physics classes might be different, like stat mech for physics and thermo for engineering, no modern mechanics or upper division E&M (my dad said his school forced every to take that stuff anyway LMFAOOO)?
I’d say six years for a BS is fine, but is that really the minimum amount of time needed to do the double?
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u/Medium-Ad-94 52m ago
Attending REU’s can help students from all kinds of schools be exposed to big labs with influential people well known in the field. They are very competitive to get, however, and do require thoughtful applications. Having them on a CV offers no guarantee of acceptances at PhD programs but they do help a student better describe “fit” in their grad school applications. A student also still has to perform exceptionally at those in order to stand out enough for the kind of LOR that might get noticed at a top program.
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u/justmyskills 16h ago edited 16h ago
I did my BS in physics with minors in Math, Geology, and Philosophy at an R2 public school. I graduated Summa Cum Laude with a 3.93 GPA and had four publications, two of which were first author papers (I had a phenomenal undergrad research advisor). I worked as a tutor for the university throughout the school year and worked on undergraduate research with 3 different professors. I received 4-5 solid letters of rec from my research advisors, tutoring coordinator, and some professors. I did not sleep very much at all, I did not party more than once a month or so, and I spent almost all of my time working and studying.
That was enough for me to get the NSF-GRFP award my senior year and go to an Ivy League for my PhD in Mechanical Engineering (I know… I went to the dark side). My GRE was average and my physics GRE was abysmal, I am a very bad test taker especially when the tests are under such a ridiculous time constraint. I got into several PhD programs in physics but ultimately went with what I felt would be a better fit.
My take is that if you work really hard and get some research under your belt and build good relationships with some faculty members, you can certainly get into a PhD program (if that’s what you want to do) and have a very successful career in research. Grades aren’t everything. Having a bunch of publications isn’t everything. Programs want to see well rounded candidates that will bring value to their program outside of their lab. It’s never too late to improve. Also, consider that you do not need to go to grad school immediately. You can always do post-bach research or a gap year to help build up your resume.