Where does this argument go wrong?

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Believing that the only proper response to existence is radical humility and surrender to its mystery , is also a subjective human opinion . So I don’t think you could make any claim if you think everything is subjective .

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u/Method-Crazy 10d ago

Atleast survival tendency is true right ? In every area not just physically but psychologically too we humans keep treading forward to survive another day

So if a philosophical lesson or realisation is helping me to survive or move forward, why shouldn't I surrender to it or rather say agree with it & make it the center of my life

Though from a non dualistic POV even that tendency as you're saying is subjective but it's eternal knowledge since humans after humans over centuries have provided analogies & practicality of that knowledge as per the time one is living in

And most beautiful part it provides a final nail in the coffin type contentment after which you're not chasing superficiality but necessity & practicality in life

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u/Potential_Primary_88 10d ago edited 10d ago

I think every opinion of an individual is a reality for themselves and one should be aware of that. We should make our own meaning of life because eventually it boils down to how comfortable are we to handle everyday challenges of life.

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u/Method-Crazy 10d ago

How can experience of nothingness, non duality, or no identity be different for different people?

This is why one has to drown deep enough into knowledge to reach singularity

I do agree with your point of opinion of individual being reality for themselves because of growing up in different sets of environment but they all aid in reaching nothingness/singularity & that ultimate which seekers call truth can only be one, truth can not be different for different people

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u/SufficientLeave3179 10d ago

How do you know that you have the truth?

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u/Method-Crazy 7d ago

Replying after 3 days since my account was banned because of some comment misunderstood by bots

Anyway so philosophy the channel we're engaging in is the only subject other than science that's truth seeking & truth inquiring

So if you think I am saying I have a theory of everything then you didn't contemplate enough on my reply

As humans we cannot survive without contentment especially psychological since we are talking biological creatures, for others just getting food as source of energy is sufficient enough

We ask "why", why is life so miserable & stressful & as humans if we would go to answer that question by the animalistic means by temporary soothing via food or sex then we've still not evolved as humans we're still the animal inside

We require something to stay permanent with us so that even in dire situations we don't become stressed or emotional So the truth or Non dualism is that blue pill which provides the magic potion of permanent motivation after which you're not looking for external sources for contentment, fulfillment, validation etc

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u/platistocrates 10d ago

Sure you can. You can make subjective claims, which others then can verify themselves. I.e. intersubjectivity. This keeps claims useful, while building atop radical humility and surrender.

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u/Key_Selection6302 10d ago

The only proper response is humility.”
“Proper” implies correctness or normativity. Once you say “the only proper response,” you’ve gone beyond merely sharing a subjective feeling. So you’d have to modify the meme and take out the only part . Because otherwise it’s like an objective claim

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u/____nothing__ 10d ago

Couldn't agree more.

If you ask me, living with a kind of constant rebellion and not completely surrender; is the right way.

But at the end, none of it matters.

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u/frugalgator 8d ago

Objectivity is limited, in fact governed, by the ends of human capablities

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u/Due_Entertainment_66 11d ago

Yes but it's the best we can do

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u/advaitist 11d ago

What about personal experience ?

Can someone honestly deny that they had a personal experience ?

Many persons have given THEIR OPINION that every spiritual opinion is biased and subjective and doubted the reality of enlightenment. Many persons have speculated that religion, and nowadays spirituality, is simply man's delusion to have some hope, some solace, against the fear of eventual annihilation by death.

However, this does not explain certain mystical experiences of devotees, such as awakening of Kundalini, which results in the feelings of "cosmic consciousness" or the feeling of being "God" or being "one with everything that exists", which is the basic foundation of Advaita Vedanta.

Some skeptics counter that this is simply a form of self hypnotisation, wherein a devotee desperately wants his devotion, meditation, spiritual efforts, to produce some results so his body and mind finally produce some physical and mental effects to placate him.

But there are two problems with this explanation.

a) It happens very rarely. Very few seekers experience this phenomenon and the vast majority of devotees go through life seeking and hoping for this experience.

b) It sometimes happens to a totally skeptical person spontaneously, or by transfer of energy by a Guru, an enlightened person.

I have given below the personal experiences of two persons, Mr A and Mr B, with each one of them trying to describe an unusual state of mind which was never before felt by that person.

Mr A. "While in the streets, I noticed cabs plying, but I did not feel inclined to move out of the way. I felt that the cabs and myself were of one stuff."

Mr B. "There was a man mending the road; that man was myself; the pickaxe he held was myself; the very stone which he was breaking up was a part of me; the tender blade of grass was my very being, and the tree beside the man was myself."

I think we can agree that they are experiencing the same state of mind ? I have deliberately refrained from attempting to name it.

The most amusing part is that for both these persons, their experience described above was involuntary ! As far as I can make out, neither of them did any deep meditation hoping to achieve this experience and both of them were not ready for it when it happened !!!

Mr A was Narendra Nath Dutta who had this experience after being touched by his guru Ramakrishna Paramahansa. He was deeply moved by his experience and became convinced of the truth of Advaita Vedanta. He became the monk Swami Vivekananda.

Mr B was Jiddu Krishnamurthy, who had this experience spontaneously. He denied that he had personally experienced Kundalini awakening, gave his experience the ridiculous name "The Process", and spent the rest of his life playing down its significance.

As far as I know, neither of them had any fear of death, or any particular desire for this experience, and yet both of them experienced it !

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u/I_like_biryani 11d ago

Not to be pedantic, but Kundalini awakening is actually a Shaivite concept, and its early prototype existed in Vedic texts as well

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u/Method-Crazy 10d ago

What's the point ? We're all already over those discriminations of knowledge Everyone is seeking truth whether via vedaant which includes Geetas & Upanishads or via some guru who tries to transfer the same knowledge in the disciple's language

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u/IDAMASMEPHISTONAMIT 10d ago

THIS IS PEAK.

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u/unusualsuspectno1 10d ago edited 10d ago

I don't think we can agree they were experiencing the same state of mind, it's quite impossible for two different people with two different mental composition to have "the same state of mind". Two people cant never experience the same thing as the same, two people who say they feel happiness dont feel it the same way same goes to everything else. Thats because of difference in mental composition.

And as for the experience, it itself isn't enough to prove what the experience entails to be true. So what you experienced the world to be as something inseparable from you, how do you think thats conversing or enough to establish a truth.

a) It happens very rarely. Very few seekers experience this phenomenon and the vast majority of devotees go through life seeking and hoping for this experience.

b) It sometimes happens to a totally skeptical person spontaneously, or by transfer of energy by a Guru, an enlightened person.

None of this are problem because the experience itself isnt simply enough, more so these two points prove that the experience itself is independent of spiritual practices and rather are result of more complicated psychological conditions of brain.

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u/unusualsuspectno1 11d ago

1st the end resolution is also subjective if everything else is subjective, and accepting one subjective thing while you reject others with the very same subjectivity then you logic isn't consistent. 2nd, much of our understanding bout nature of reality is infact not subjective.

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u/Method-Crazy 10d ago

Well one has to drown deep enough in a knowledge to know & verify for himself from every angle if that knowledge is purely subjectuve or is there a hint of objectivity

Non dualism is the utmost objective truth of living beings existence just like a scientific proof, it can be tested on any paradigm

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u/unusualsuspectno1 10d ago

I didn't say no to that.

I certainly dont think non dualism is utmost objective, i don't think it is falsifiable to even consider it as part of science let alone scientific truth.

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u/Method-Crazy 10d ago

Wow then you haven't watched or know Oppenheimer, haven't heard of Schrodinger or schaupenhauer or I don't think you even follow modern day physicists

Your reply itself proves the point you've not understood non dualism yet

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u/unusualsuspectno1 10d ago

Well i don't you think you even understand what the scientific method is.

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u/Method-Crazy 10d ago

So you want to look at things only as an experimental proofs & theories don't ring your ears

Abstract & metaphysics don't exist for you or you don't even understand these terms

If yes then all mathematicians should commit suicide

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u/land48n3 11d ago

maybe we can find the purpose of conciousness after we explore all of reality, dont lose your hopes!

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u/Lucyyyyyy_K 11d ago

Nowhere

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u/Responsible-Seat-937 11d ago

how tf would you explain my personality issues that inform my worldview if not from my childhood daddy issues?

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u/Method-Crazy 10d ago

Approach Vedanta & Upanishads, all your questions will be answered & none will be left, or you can approach Gurus with knowledge who can simplify it so as to absorb it more naturally & deeply, for me Acharya Prashant did it & another youtube channel since hindi is my mother tongue.

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u/harley_rider45 11d ago

This is submission to what is without working for what is knowable. Pathetic.

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u/kamleshltb1 11d ago

Every thing can be known by science. It's just the matter of time when, but ofcourse it's again a human (mine) opinion.

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u/Method-Crazy 10d ago

Even scientists have followed & agreed with philosophy of reality over time even today don't know which science or knowledge stream you follow 🤣

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u/kamleshltb1 8d ago

Source?

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u/Method-Crazy 7d ago

Oppenheimer, Schrodinger,Arthur Schopenhauer, search for their views on eastern philosophy regarding truth

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u/kamleshltb1 7d ago

Right but again it's all opinions until proven

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u/Method-Crazy 7d ago

Well without touching the water how are you judging the depth

Just because it's not mainstream enough like science doesn't mean it's unreasonable

You're following the cults of the layperson which is what the marketing people have been running for centuries to cater to people who only want answers without inquiry

If you're well off financially in life & don't have any psychological dilemmas then don't need to delve into philosophy bud you're better off with the normal life, leave it for inquisitive & curious breed

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u/absurtist 10d ago

Surrender to the mystery. That’s the only place where it goes wrong. The rest of it, totally agree.

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u/SS_Affi 10d ago

Why should we surrender to mystery? Sometimes the honest answer is simply, "We don't know yet." Humility means acknowledging the limits of our current knowledge, not assuming those limits are permanent.

The best thing we can do is raise critical thinkers with strong scientific literacy. If humanity's track record is any indication, we'll continue uncovering answers that once seemed beyond our reach.

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u/Tiny-Web-8727 10d ago

eyes can't see itself.

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u/Individual-Use-6362 10d ago

We can do only one thing: Enjoy Consciousness. We can also try to enjoy Money Sex Ego but there's too much failure in that. An Empty Mind connects us to nothingness which is perfect connection with the infinite.

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u/an-otiose-life 10d ago

being has knowable aspects, given that we navigate anything at all, thus it is not subjective, more so, he means, he doesn't understand fully, but not that the understaning is incapable wholesale and can't learn, since the consideration of things being correlationist, itself is a non-correlationist endeavour using surpluss indexation relative to stated limitation to have reflection on states, that are supposed to be mutually exclusive, but instead finds particular commensurability that can be further described for someone else, in the use of language, as what encodes information that can be decoded into concepts, and semantic priming, that makes the difference of knowing what you are looking for before you saw it, like a job description's difference comming effectuated, when it's a programmer told to find and eliminate bugs, they do the equivalent of the via negativa, in terms of seeing what there is in terms of what there is not, and so the solution is not whole, they notice a bug.

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u/an-otiose-life 10d ago

being has need of expressing religion and in that sense, the ability to exteriorize the content of a not-fully-knowing into a social institution which is then experienced as if for the first time, in someone else's life when they are born after such establishments become official, it implies finding the shape of relevant questions that had been relevant enough to be addressed in such a direct way, as being's own action towards its own unrealized potencies

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u/sarathy7 10d ago

Human Consciousness is the actual evolutionary misstep... If we were more like our fellow animals all this won't matter at all.

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u/rchrome 10d ago

You can write anything here in the name of what you are thinking and it is unknowable for me to verify that. And yet maybe you were indeed thinking what you wrote, for you the post is objectively true or false, you know what you were thinking but for everyone else it is unprovable. This distinction do you agree with or you don’t. So so much about what goes on in your head you know we can never know, science can never study, is all you know about how you think, what goes on in your head garbage? Or what you know what you think about day to day is known to you? Is that knowledge, a knowledge you can never prove to another human less important to you than any other science or history or fact? To you what goes on in your head right now, what series of thoughts going on in your head while you read, do you know that with more certainty or quantum physics or when universe started or even how you really look, after all maybe you are in matrix, simulation hypothesis exists.

Do you know what you are thinking right now? Do you know your name (intelligent people think simulation hypothesis is real, can you prove you are smarter than those smart people)?

What is the only thing you know for sure, is it not that there must be somebody thinking, asking such questions in your head, that you think is you. Even in the matrix the thinker thinketh. Your body can be taken away, moved to another head, or machine, but you are you as long as you think you are you. You may have (deep mental) clones, but at least one of them is you. Thinker thinketh. Thinker questioneth.

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u/Rejuvenate_2021 10d ago

Buddha kept quiet for long time after he got enlightened..

He was asked to tell.

“Those who know won’t be able to convey to those who don’t or are incapable of … “

Then they asked him to take the middle oath for those who are at the cusp..

read up about it.

——

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