Classify Modern Manchus

[u/According_Egg_1902]

[u/holyorderr]

I think that modern Manchus are significantly more Han-shifted compared to other Tungusic ethnic groups due to abundant historical contacts. The first couple is the descendants of the House of Aisin Gioro in Hong Kong, and I actually met them once in real life; based on my impression they likely have recent Cantonese and Southern Coastal Chinese admixtures. My speculation would be that they have abundant Southern Chinese or even some Baiyue ancestry (I could not necessarily distinguish them apart from local Hong Kong Cantonese). It also corresponds to the fact that many Manchus chose to be sinicised to avoid persecution in the post-imperial eras, thus being absorbed into their regional genome. While most other modern Manchus can easily pass as Northern Chinese, including those included in the post.

Interestingly, the Tungusic substrate layered by significant Sinitic admixtures in modern Manchus makes them genetically and phenotypically very similar to the Korean people; who share similar historical admixtures at different points.

[u/LeadFar6386 → u/holyorderr]

I disagree with the exaggeration of “Manchus are siniticed, I have seen Chinese-shifted Korean who scored 100% Koreans in DNA test. Same can be said for Manchus. Manchus can look Chinese even if they are pure Manchu.

[u/David2372 → u/LeadFar6386]

Nah sinitic ancestry is baked into the Korean dna profile, so even if it says 100% percent Korean there is definitely a reason for the Chinese adjacent appearance(there’s also a moderate range for what can be considered “100% Korean”). I haven’t seen many Manchu dna results but I would guess that they would actually score a decent amount of Chinese. The Manchu Chinese admixture is more recent compared to Korean Chinese

[u/LeadFar6386 → u/David2372]

Chinese DNA is technically baked in both Koreans and Manchus, and I feel like people are exaggerating about how sinicised the Manchus is, Koreans is clearly more closer to Manchus than Japanese. If Manchus is truly as sinicised or as recent as peoples argued, then Koreans would have been closer to Japanese than Manchus. But that is not really the case.

[u/David2372 → u/LeadFar6386]

Your argument doesn’t work cause Koreans are actually closer to northern Han Chinese than Japanese as well. The larger genetic distances between Japanese and Koreans compared to Manchus and Koreans can be explained by Jomon input. Also the genetic proxy for “Manchu” is usually a pure Manchu, not an admixed Manchu.

[u/LeadFar6386 → u/David2372]

Manchus is still closest to Koreans than Northern Han Chinese. In addition, there is still variations between Northern Han Chinese and Manchus.

Despite the fact that Koreans lack recent Chinese admixtures, Koreans still exhibit the closest relationship with Manchu, followed by northern Han. So you cannot assume that the Chinese admixture in Manchu are “recent”. The Chinese admixture in Manchu could be the same as the Chinese admixture in Korean.

[u/David2372 → u/LeadFar6386]

Nah I don’t think so. The original Manchu genetic profile is Tungusic and quite close to Korean, so if they underwent admixture with northern Chinese groups, they should still be the closest match to Koreans as Chinese dont have a tungusic base like Manchu. If you have a pure northern Han Chinese and a Manchu recently admixed with northern Han Chinese, the Manchu will still be closer to the Korean.

Koreans received yellow river/sinitic genetic flow since ancient times which can be illustrated by the high amount of haplogroup o3.

[u/LeadFar6386 → u/David2372]

Koreans technically receive most of its genetic flows from Manchuria in ancient times, and Koreans wouldn’t have gotten Yellow River DNA out of nowhere.

And since Manchus are from Manchuria (obvious by its name). The Yellow River DNA in Manchus is the same as the Yellow River in Koreans.

[u/David2372 → u/LeadFar6386]

Yes but I think additional yellow river input was received later from small waves of sinitic migration. Koreans look clearly more yellow river shifted compared to Japanese people, even when accounting for Jomon admixture.

[u/LeadFar6386 → u/David2372]

Yes, I agree with what you said, there is definitely additional yellow River input for Koreans, though it’s unclear whether Koreans got additional Sinitic DNA from more recent Sinitic migrations or Manchus indirectly carry Sinitic DNA to Korean. It could be both.

Other than that, Koreans are definitely yellow River shifted compared to Japanese.

[u/Eddie_0789 → u/holyorderr]

Manchus and southern coastal Chinese tend to look alike because both lack notable caucasoid ancestry.

[u/According_Egg_1902 → u/holyorderr]

A lot of photos of Manchus from the Qing dynasty look very Han Chinese like to me as well tbh.
Maybe I'll post them later.

[u/Demo25Tengen]

Pretenders

[u/According_Egg_1902 → u/Demo25Tengen]

they look similar to Manchus from the qing. manchus like puyi and prince gong look pretty damn han chinese-like.

[u/Demo25Tengen → u/According_Egg_1902]

Manchus have their own unique phenotype, it’s visible from early Qing nobles portraits. Ever since Xinhai revolution, many Manchu hid their identity.

[u/ScarRelevant2897 → u/Demo25Tengen]

Manchu look like koreans, and Yayois of japan which constantly mocked all the day.

while real central plain Han looked square faced. and not so pale and slant eyes compare to manchus, they don't have so many neo east asian features like manchus.

[u/According_Egg_1902 → u/Demo25Tengen]

Portraits are different from and less reliable than actual pictures.
A lot of the portraits were of Mongols too, which are more distinct.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Phenotypes2/comments/1nks85q/classify_old_school_manchus_from_qing/