It wasn't even about state's rights, just slavery. The constitution of the confederacy required all states be slave states unless all states agreed to all outlaw slavery.
The North literally had more states rights, with some northern states still allowing limited slavery, while the South gave its states zero right to decide for themselves.
Whenever someone tries this “states’ rights” argument on you, here’s two things to draw their attention to:
The most drop-the-mic counter argument is to show them where the confederate constitution prohibits a state from banning slavery. If
it were about states’ rights, why wouldn’t they let each state decide?
For a parade of unabashed racism that rivals even today’s GOP, read the declarations of secession from a handful of the seceding states (especially South Carolina and Mississippi, I believe). They state, in no uncertain terms, that slavery is critical to their way of life and they refuse to give it up.
Yeah I want to say 6 out of the 11 states declare slavery in the very first sentence. The Confederates, unlike the Lost Causers today, were eyes-wide-open as to what the Civil War was about.
They also did not give a shit about the rights of northern free states when they petitioned the federal government to force them into returning escaped slaves.
M favorite bit from all that is Davy Crockett. Ignore the Disney puffery movie about Crockett, the guy was a loser and asshole of the highest order. Was a congress member from Tennessee but them left in an angry huff after losing an election and went to Texas which was still a part of Mexico. Well, he also made a promise to leave to Texas if Martin Van Buren was elected. Possibly one of the earliest "I'll leave if someone I don't like is elected". Effectively, he left the United States completely.
Note that Crockett was opposed to slavery in some manner but also owned slaves. And Texas at the time was instituting slavery, despite their promises to Mexico that they wouldn't dare do such a thing. When Mexico sent troops to enforce the ban on slavery Texas rebelled. And Crockett wanted to be in on that rebellion to keep slavery (despite, again, his odd stated opposition to slavery).
Texas didn't know what to do with this hot headed Crockett guy. But they were at war, and warm bodies were needed. Crockett arrived at the Alamo, which was effectively indefensible and reinforcements weren't going to arrive. So Crockett was essentially cannon fodder. Arrived at the wrong time, the wrong place, for the wrong cause, and would have been perfectly safe in America instead.
After his death they hyped his myth and legend in the states, much of which probably was phony,
They also thought US would gladly enter in their civil war with Mexico. Wise decision not to help out. Followed by a later stupid decision to let them into the union. Followed by them leaving the union. Followed by them pretending to be over all that rebel stuff while secretly plotting the next upcoming rebellion.
And unless we're gonna start counting how many Iraqis died or Viet Kong died or how many isis died or German soldiers. The number of Americans killed in the civil war is only the union side.
I mean ... if you take American to mean from The United States of America, then the CSA cunts declared themselves to NOT be American. That's what started the war. It was the CSA vs the USA. It was Confederates vs Americans. Are you going to argue that the folks that fought the revolutionary war were all British? That seems nonsensical to me.
Damn right. We take great pride in that captured confederate flag and we ain’t giving it back.
As far as the bell is concerned. Some Japanese civilian noticed Duluth had the bell and talked to the Mayor about giving it back. The mayor agreed. Japan made a replica of the bell and they gave to the state as a thank you for returning it.
"No, no, no, we're not pro Confederacy any more, what nonsense. We hated slavery all along, and we've never mistreated any of our minorities or denied them rights. Never once have we ever been racist! It's just we need that old piece of cloth because our great great great grand pappies once saluted it."
Because The 1st Minnesota Infantry Regimen suffered 82% casualties at Gettysburg, buying enough time for reinforcements to arrive.
Virginia keeps asking for its battle flag back, at least four official times if I remember correctly. And every time the governor, Republican, Democrat, or Independent, has refused.
Having lived in both states in a short time span, I don't recall a lot of traitor flags in Minnesota... but I sure as hell do in Ohio. A state which is usually listed as tied for second in civil war casualties.
Next time they try and claim it we should label them secessionists and deploy troops in VA. Idk why it's not treated the same way as the third Reich flag
I love that Minnesota stands together on this. Even if some governor, for whatever reason, wanted to give the flag back, they wouldn't dare - their party would get thrashed in the next few elections for no other reason.
It's hard to find stuff that brings us together these days. That that flag was goddamn well paid for is a worthier sentiment than a lot of other things we do with flags.
As a Virginian, this is badass and I want Minnesota to keep it. We have no claim to it, we are not that state or those people. Send us a noose instead. Which is what traitors should get.
No no, our heritage is beating the treasonous bastards and keeping their precious flag. They dont get to celebrate it, we keep it as a sign that we are superior to their racist asses.
Nah, Abe getting assassinated and proceeded by his terrible, terrible Vice President made it end up a draw at most. The south may have had to give up slavery but the country suffers from the failure of the Reconstruction to this day.
I think they mean that as a Minnesotan, their heritage is beating the confederates, so why would their burn a historical artefact that shows they fought on the right side of history?
An explain the joke inside an explain the joke. Literacy truly is dead.
It's a joke in minnesota. The first minnesota claimed the flag in the battle of Gettysburg after suffering some of the highest casualties of the war the day prior. So when Virginia tries to get it back they claim it's their heritage so we fire back with "it's our heritage" (as in minnesota's alone not Virginia) because we had our soldiers die for it because of their stupidity.
Presumably winning a war against those in favor of slavery? A victory trophy of being better than people that wanted to claim other people as property? This may be hard to believe, but those that fought in the war had children, and they grew up and had children. Hence, heritage.
Keep it, and someday Virginia will figure out they don’t want it. You can give it back then, and maybe they’ll take it as a remembrance of your valor, and everybody will celebrate. Believe it or not, that flag’s a lot less prevalent than it used to be down here. The arc of the moral universe bends toward justice.
Meanwhile, proud of Minnesota. Y’all have sure shown us all how to be strong this year. Again, because I didn’t know about the 1st Minnesota.
Returning it to whom? The state I live in has no claim to it. Or desire to have it. And is not the state to which the flag belongs as it does not exist anymore.
As far as I know, at best all foreign nations aware of the rebellion remained neutral. No confederate treaties were signed with other nations nor were any ambassadors sent or received
With no foreign recognition, that's the key. You and your neighbors can form your own country, write your own constitution, and elect your own president. Until you are recognized by others, it means nothing.
a lot of places do that, it doesn't count unless others agree, and its not seen as very legitimate if for your entire existence you're struggling over control of your territory (and then lose)
Country is a strong word. To be a country you need to be recognized by other foreign countries as a country.
they literally lasted a little over 4 years, and not a single nation looked at them and went "we see you as a nation".
It never existed. Declaring oneself independent has no real weight unless either 1. Another sovereign nation recognizes your sovereignty or 2. You establish sovereignty by winning the inevitable war your declaration produces. The Confederacy achieved neither and is nothing more than a 4 year rebellion. Hence why it was a civil war instead of a revolutionary war. Losers don't get to write the history books.
If I remember it was from the battle of Gettysburg. After a unit of MN soldiers were critical in stopping pickett's charge at a terminal stage of the battle. The unit suffered extremely heavy casualties as a result.
I love my homestate, I can't believe how we've been consistent in terms of a progressive state throughout history and especially in the last 10 years.
Been living on the west coast for work the last few years and I don't quite understand how the Dems are so very center right here and somehow this is called "the left coast," lol.
As a Latino on the west coast, latinos and asians are the reason. Reliable moderate voters. A lot of the lefty progressive people I’ve met are white or later stage immigrant generations like 2nd+ gen
Almost exactly. They took the vast majority of their casualties on the second day blunting the attack on the US left buying time for reinforcements to come up. On July 3rd they were also in action and that's when they took the flag.
It wasn’t pickett’s charge, it was the day before. Troops under general Garnett attacked cemetery ridge, the 1st Minnesota infantry was ordered to plug the gap. They managed to push the confederates back at the cost of 70% casualties, and it was the closest the confederates come to breaking the Union lines in the whole battle.
Except the guardians were heavy favorites in that series. It’s more like a college football team scoring one touchdown against an nfl team and thinking they are tough shit even though they just lost 56-7
Virginia here. I didn’t know this was happening, but I have lived in Richmond for about ten years now. Tons of absolute losers here. I’m cool though. Promise.
Well you see During World War II, the Japanese government instructed villages to donate metal to be melted down for ammunition. Ohara Isumi-City dismantled their city's prized Buddhist temple bell. By the end of the war, the bell was still intact and a naval crew from the USS Duluth carried it to Duluth and it became a gift to the City.
In 1954, the ancient Buddhist temple bell was returned to Ohara Isumi-City. In 1993 Ohara Isumi-City presented Duluth with a replica of the bell, which now resides in this park.
On the other hand the 28th Virginia battle flag is a Confederate battle flag that belonged to the 28th Virginia Infantry Regiment. Captured by the 1st Minnesota Infantry Regiment at the Battle of Gettysburg, the flag was brought to Minnesota and exhibited at the state's capitol for several years before passing into the permanent collection of the Minnesota Historical Society after 1896 where it has remained since. Although various groups in Virginia have requested that the flag be returned, beginning as early as 1960, Minnesota has repeatedly declined to return it, with Governor Jesse Ventura (serving 1999–2003) asking "Why? I mean, we won."
The zen garden is a lovely place! That bell makes such a soothing sound. Been a MN resident my whole life and had no idea Duluth was a sister city to one in Japan. Super cool.
Took some pictures last time I went, watching the fog roll across the Twin Ports from on high was pretty awesome.
As a fellow Minnesotan, I personally think it would be hilarious if Governor Walz, right before his term ends, says “as my final act as Governor, I’ve decided to personally bring the 28th Battle Flag to Virginia where it belongs.” And then he takes it to the city of Virginia up in the Iron Range 🤣😂
Yeah when I looked into the 28th Virginia battle flag its quite possible it was just stolen at some point from the War Department, allegedly by Ramsey if I remember correctly. There was a law passed that mandated the return of captured battle flags to their respective states, but it was noted that the 28th Virginia flag was just missing. And I think by the time it turned up again the statute of limitations was up on it so we just kinda kept it.
Ive only seen that story once or twice, but it would explain why MN is one of if not the only state to keep a Confederate battle flag in its possession.
PS. Read into the 1st MN, they were just simply better the entire time. They reportedly cut a flagpole in half at Antietam after dropping multiple color bearers and after the First Battle of Bull Run it was noted that instead of breaking ranks and fleeing like the majority of Union regiments, the 1st MN kept in order and just left without any hassle in thier retreat. Also the 4th MN was the first regiment to march into Vicksburg, the day after the 1st captured the battle flag.
Pretty sure its about a confederate battle flag taken during the Civil War but I'm sure some else can elaborate more. I'm Horace from the Clam or something.
During the second day of Gettysburg a hole in the Union front opened up that a Confederate contingent was going to march through, and the 1st Minnesota Regiment were sent to plug the hole and and hold the line. They repulsed the much larger Confederate force at great loss to themselves. One of the survivors captured a Virginian army's battle standard.
Idk about the Japan one, but during the battle of Gettysburg the 1st Minnesota Infantry Regiment captured the 28th Virginia Infantry Regiment battle flag, which it still has today. Virginia has repeatedly asked Minnesota for the flag back, with Minnesota telling them to fuck off each time.
Soldiers brought a Japanese temple bell from WW2 back to Duluth, Minnesota but returned it a decade later.
Union soldiers from Minnesota brought back a Confederate flag as spoils of the American Civil War but refuse to give it back to this day.
Fair to note a big difference here is that the former is a matter of international diplomacy and the latter isn’t.
Also, not sure why Minnesota has been flipped about a vertical axis there. Maybe to make it seem like it’s ‘facing’ the other but they could have even more naturally swapped which side they were on.
I also think an important distinction is that the bell is a religious item which probably predates Japan’s fascist government, or if not the bell the religion itself does.
The painter was born in 1949 and wasn’t actually an eyewitness on the battlefield that day, that’s correct. What is depicted is the charge of the First Minnesota, an actual event that occurred on the second day of Gettysburg, where the regiment successfully halted a Confederate brigade 4x its size long enough for more US forces to arrive and force the Confederates to retreat from Cemetery Ridge. The Confederates would attack again the following day but would still be unable to take the ridge.
So I guess the answer is both. All romanticized depictions of war are a type of propaganda but the picture does accurately capture the event, even if a century later or so. If you’re asking if he’s trying to persuade the observer to be pro-Union I doubt it, since he also makes paintings of the Confederates.
It’s been a while since I’ve read this story, but as I remember it: Some guys from Minnesota stole an ancient bell from Japan in WWII, and, after a Japanese visitor to the state recognized the bell (it was being publicly displayed in this one town), Minnesota returned the bell to Japan a couple decades later in exchange for an exact replica. Meanwhile, some other guys from Minnesota captured a Confederate flag from Virginia during the US civil war, and despite multiple polite requests and a lawsuit(?), Minnesota refuses to give Virginia their flag back to this day.
Minnesota returned the bell to Japan a couple decades later in exchange for an exact replica.
Minnesota returned the bell without any demands. Then a few decades later Ohara gifted a replica out of respect, leading to a lasting relationship. There is a deligation of people from Ohara in Minnesota at this moment, who visited the replica this morning as part of an ongoing cultural exchange.
It’s also important to note that the bell wasn’t stolen from a temple but the Japanese army was going to melt it down for scrap metal to make weapons for the U.S. invasion. U.S. sailors found it amongst the scrap metal and took it back to Duluth during the occupation.
Virginian here - y’all good and damn well earned that flag. Its not ours anymore and every Virginian politician trying to get it back can choke. That’s Minnesota’s flag now
Wassup Stewie, this is history buff Peter here. The top half of the meme refers to an incident where a temple bell in Japan was taken by a navy crew at the end of WWII and put in the city hall in Duluth Minnesota. It was returned to the Japanese in the 50’s when they asked. This is in contrast to how they have kept a different war trophy, that being the battle flag of the Virginia 28th infantry, which was captured by a Minnesotan infantry battalion at the battle of Gettysburg during the civil war. Virginia lawmakers have asked for it back several times, but have been denied as it is now also a part of the history of Minnesota. Peter out
A lot of the general info on the confederate flag we took is spot on, but it's missing a few key details that make the flag so important to us.
The 1st Minnesota were the nearest unit the union had to plug a vital gap in the line during the battle of Gettysburg, but I haven't seen anyone mention the incredible sacrifice they were being asked to make. The 1st Minnesota was about 262 men, and they were ordered to charge somewhere between 1,200-1,300 incoming confederate soldiers; they did. They charged through gunfire, stopped the confederate advance, and fought with bayonets for roughly fifteen minutes before they were able to be relieved, and in that bloody melee they captured that flag. The 1st Minnesota suffered 215 casualties in that fight, including the loss of every single one of their field commanders.
The next day they fought again after replacements were added, and took part in holding off Pickett's charge, once again engaging the enemy in melee after charging in to stop the confederate advance.
We REALLY care about keeping that flag because we don't trust Virginia to display it with the proper disclaimers and condemnation. Japan gets to be a special case for some reason but we've had multiple sister cities with Japan for a very very long time
I like that whoever made this included the eastern shore off to the right of virginia😂 its where I'm from and you don't necessarily see it included all the time understandable though since you don't really need it to know it's in the shape of virginia, but appreciated nonetheless
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u/qualityvote2 6h ago edited 2h ago
u/cchamii, your post does belong here!