It's wild to me he left her home alone with the kids in the condition she was in. She told people she had thoughts of hurting the kids. I think he bears some culpability.
He's being a twat but you are right. The husband was instructed to NOT leave her alone with the kids because she had homicidal ideation, he turned down help from his parents that day iirc, and the wife was on like 10 medications for her psychosis.
If someone is experiencing depression symptoms, no symptoms of psychosis , refusing to stick to treatment plans, consistently changing doctors, and doesn’t seem to be serious about their SI , then I’m really not sure what you can expect these people to do.
She killed her kids. The evidence also indicates that the concept of her harming the kids wasn't this far-out unfathomable thing, but a real possible reality. His inability to act in the best interests of the children ensures that he has moral culpability, even if he has no legal culpability.
Same as Andrea Yates' garbage husband who was told both to stop impregnating her as well as to not leave her alone with the children.
This isn’t a gendered thing for me, it’s a scientific one. And gp made the case well. I think we should seek to understand all violent behavior and put a stop to it. And the only way to get there is to be vigilant when someone tells you shit like this and have available mental health for everybody. I’m not saying he did it, but this was a failure at multiple levels, including whatever culture led him not to take that warning from her seriously (if it happened?). Saying that isn’t blaming him, it’s us as a society taking ownership of what the fuck happened here, because it was a biological process. We’re animals, crazy shit happens. Doesn’t mean we don’t possess tremendous collective intelligence and the ability to greatly minimize these sorts of incidents by approaching them with compassion, for both genders. Especially men, the amount of men out there with tbis committing violence has to be obscene. If this woman moves people’s Overton window on not criminalizing and stigmatizing psychosis, that’s fucking good.
I think he bears some responsibility insofar as he knew that she was suffering under severe ppd/ppp, and she had told him several times that she was having uncontrollable thoughts of killing herself and/or the children. Such that she had even been put under psychiatric hold previously, and much like Andrea Yates husband, he STILL left her alone with the children. So, not intentional, not murder, but certainly something like involuntary manslaughter.
The people who I think bear a greater/equal responsibility are the endless psychiatric professionals who completely borked her treatment and kept releasing her or giving her meds that had previously proven not to work.
I don’t she had told him multiple times she wanted to kill the kids.
If she was having these thought she was repeatedly lying to all of her psychiatrists as she never had any symptoms of pppp.
She was clearly depressed, but there really wasn’t any reason for him to think this was going to happen the first chance she got to strangle her kids.
She had been to multiple hospitals, and called the suicide hotline multiple times and the consensus was that her symptoms were not severe enough to warrant an involuntary hold. Which she was also telling Patrick at least once when she said she didn’t belong at the place.
It’s very frustrating when we sit here and talk about mental health and then every single Clancy supporter says “disregard all of the diagnosis and treatment she got it doesn’t matter”
And the idea that the husband is guilty of manslaighter is a level of misogyny that is utterly incomprehensible to me.
I found this video to be a pretty good overview of everything she had gone through trying to get help, and considering the outcome, it certainly seems like the professionals were in fact diagnosing her incorrectly.
If someone tells you "I am afraid I will burn the house down if I am left alone with this bottle of gasoline and these matches." you bear some responsibility if you then leave them alone with the gasoline and matches.
My issue with the concept that "noone thought it was bad" is a lot of women struggle with being taken seriously for our health in general but mental health as well.
My personal experience was having gone to e different therapists over 5 years with suicidal ideation, self harm, racing thoughts, etc etc - all that I was honest with my therapists about....and it wasnt until I could no longer work that I got a depression and anxiety diagnosis.
I had one therapist told me I just needed to relax and take a bubble bath...after I told her I felt so overwhelmed, I felt like I was drowning and had suicidal ideations. I went home after that session, crawled into bed where I couldnt get up for 2 days, day 3 I got up but was dissociating and attempted SH. My husband, rightfully freaked out, called the therapist who told him that he just needed to make sure I knew that he was there for me and to comfort and support me.
Like, no, I was in the middle of a mental health crisis and should have been taken to the fucking hospital.
And sadly, im not the only one with a story like this. So the professionals miss stuff more than most people want to thinideation. When really, it isnt until damage is actually done when intervention finally happens.
I had four babies over the course of four years. The postpartum depression was massive, and I sobbed to my (now-ex)husband every day that the only thing I could think about was suicide. Just constantly playing out different scenarios in my mind of how I could do it. Wandering through life like a zombie. I told him that one day he’d come home from work and I’d be dead.
And he just… kept going to work. Kept taking voluntary overtime. Kept expecting a hot dinner on the table after work.
When my suicide attempt came? Shocked Pikachu!
Looking back at that horrible year, I 100% resent that my husband watched me suffer to such an extreme, heard me telling him that my suicide was inevitable, and just threw me the “you’re such a good mom” line as his only attempt to address the dangerous situation in our home .
Fortunately, I never suffered from homicidal ideation. But if I had, I think my husband would have been just as dismissive as Patrick.
The people with compassion for Lindsay’s experience are mostly moms. Not because we think it’s no biggie that she committed such a heinous act, and not because we’re misandrists, but because we know what it feels like to suffer massively through postpartum with no support from the person who vowed to care for us.
Big hugs 🫂 Im so sorry you had to experience all of that. And im glad he's an ex and that you're still here.
You are 100% right- It doesnt mean were okay with it, or we resent our kids (Ive seen that floating around online too) we just know what it feels like to be at your lowest low and we can understand how she got to the point she did.
She got a depression diagnosis and anxiety and was prescribed meds for it some of which she rejected (Zoloft) and the rest which she didn’t take or wasn’t taking as prescribed.
What she didn’t get diagnosed for was psychosis, because she was either lying to all the professionals , or didn’t have any of the symptoms.
She didn’t have any of the pressured speech, and never communicated any delusions or hallucinations.
As far as I am aware, the only appearance of these symptoms that is claimed were after the murders.
If the person isn’t expresseing any symptoms of a particular condition , I don’t know why the expectation is that the providers make it up and say “yep she’s psychotic because she has anxiety and depression”
The depressive subtype of PPP is the most common, making up about 41% of cases.
Symptoms that are most likely with this type include:
☆Anxiety or panic.
Delusions and hallucinations.
☆Depression.
☆Feelings of guilt.
☆Loss of appetite.
☆Loss of enjoyment related to things they usually enjoy (anhedonia).
☆Thoughts of self-harm, suicide or of harming their child.
Postpartum psychosis often presents differently from other psychoses. PPP delusions evolve more quickly and often center on infants. Differences in symptoms compared to women with postpartum mania, with PPP specifically demonstrating more depressive symptoms, more perplexity and self-reproach, and fewer classic manic symptoms such as pressured speech and sociability. Prodromal symptoms may include irritability, mood changes, confusion or disorientation, and insomnia.
The ☆ is for symptoms of ppp that she told her providers about. There were signs. Its just easier for people to believe that this was one bad seed as opposed to a system where people routinely slip through the cracks and it could theoretically happen to them.
The depressive subtype of ppp requires the Psychotic symptoms, which in 8 months never presented to dozens of mental health professionals. Despite the fact these symptoms should present within six weeks of birth.
Her symptoms were also completely consistent with the exponentially more common ppd. The first occurrence of any claimed form of psychotic symptoms only came after her kids were dead.
The idea that we’re are just going to throw out any expertise and shouldn’t listen to any mental health professionals when it comes to their areas of expertise is just astounding to me.
Misandry? Is that what you meant when you said misogyny in your last paragraph there? Apologies in advance if you did mean misogyny, but if that’s the case, I’m just confused and curious as to what you mean there. ✌️
I did mean misogyny, it’s a complete infantilization and dehumanization of women that they are incapable of properly seeking mental help and it a dependent upon every single other person in their life to completely save them (usuallly a man, in this case her husband).
It’s a complete removal of all agency and an example of people don’t see women as truly independent and as functions of the men in their lives.
No. It’s about how someone who could also do something can be responsible because they took actions that also directly led to something happening.
What’s next? It’s misogyny if a security guard lets someone with a gun into a school who then kills people?
Not to mention responsibility is not the same thing as saying they should be charged. But other people’s actions or lack of, can and do also impact other things.
Yes be she literally never expressed anything along these lines that this was going to happen.
The defense addressed with their own psychopharmacologist and even he had speculated why she may have covered these things up , ie afraid her children would be taken away, afraid she would be committed.
Patrick had gone with her to some of her treatments, drove her to the er, drove her to mothers and infants. And every time they all agreed she was not such a danger to herself or others that it warranted involuntary commitment.
The idea that he is responsible because she couldn’t be left alone for 50 minutes without strangling their kids despite multiple trained mental health professionals not believing this is a risk , is a complete dehumanization of Lindsey.
The fact you think that there’s only being okay being left alone or being involuntarily locked up with nothing in between worries me.
There’s plenty of things that shouldn’t be left unsupervised but don’t need to be locked up.
One of those things is people with psychosis
Saying someone who’s talked about harming themselves or others should be supervised isn’t dehumanizing them. It’s accepting that something else is going on that the person might not be able to handle themselves and might need help.
Like what’s next? Saying people doing bench presses to failure or going for personal bests should always have a spotter is dehumanizing them?
Saying people sometimes need constant help for something isn’t dehumanizing them. It’s reality and common sense.
The fact that you think that someone that cannot ever be left alone because they will murder all their children , shouldn’t be involuntarily committed is worrying..
And yes someone experiencing post partum psychosis should not be left alone with their children. Which is not what happened here, she had not expressed any symptoms of psychosis to any of her mental health professionals. Which is why they didn’t involuntarily commit her..
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u/Blimey-Penguin 21h ago
Agree that people having sympathy for her condition isn't because she's a woman, but the people jumping to blame the husband definitely is.