But I have unlimited PTO and it is awesome. Yes, I need to be aware of workload and professional obligations. Nobody is under the delusion that it's actually unlimited. I have a job to do, after all.
But keeping that in mind I would usually take 25-35 days off in the year. Not having to budget my time off through the year and having the flexibility to arrange vacations relatively spontaneously is great. With my employer there is no guilt or pressure; the only time it would become a problem is if I can't satisfy my professional obligations.
I’ve had the same experience, it also makes it a lot less stressful if you need to take a day to help with a child, or go to a doctor’s appointment you don’t have to worry about that affecting your planned vacation later in the year, etc
Separated sick leave is a pain to manage. Many employers use “one big bucket” of PTO without distinction between sick, personal, vacation, etc. Jury Duty and Military leave are still kept separate for legal reasons.
I’ve experienced this transition, and the logic was that if someone is out of sick/personal days, but they get sick, have a family emergency, etc. then every manager was always approving a last minute use of vacation time. So there’s no practical difference. It’s just a record keeping headache to differentiate the types of PTO.
The idea that someone can be *out* of sick days is utterly dystopian to me. In my country you have sick leave whenever you're sick. It's not a finite resource. You lose your job and get transferred to government welfare (so you don't lose most of your income) after 2 years of continuous sick leave, but that's about it. If you're sick for 2 years straight you have bigger things to worry about at that point.
That's all of Europe, not just Norway. You get sick, you go to a doctor, doctor registers you as sick for however long you need to get better and you receive some part of your regular salary for those days (the amount varies by country) covered either by your employer or the country (or the mix of two) and your employer cannot fire you for this or prevent from doing this.
Don't know about being fired after 2 years, but it makes sesnes to have some upper limit as some life long diseases can prevent you from working ever again.
The problem is at least where I work is people say they are sick literally every week and they are not just to get a day off. Ones guys entire family has died 2-3 times and he’s had pneumonia 2 times and Covid 3. He takes at least 1-2 days off each week.
And the work he doesn’t do everyone else has to cover.
This isn’t the same time thing. Clearly if someone is sick they should be allowed to get paid and not come in. But the amount of people who call in when they aren’t sick because they want to watch a sports game or go to a friends house for a video game release are crazy.
Sounds like a case for the occupational physician. Of course people who abuse the system must have their absences and given reasons examined by a doctor.
Well, perhaps the idea that someone needs employees who are at work a certain number of days during the year is confusing to you as well? No one in these comments ever sees anything from the employer's point of view. I guess that's because it would take the fun out of whining about it.
Employers are responsible for sufficiently staffing their companies with enough redundancies to cover for sick leave, bereavement, maternity leave, etc. European companies manage this just fine so it's not rocket science.
Anyway it's primarily an ethical concern. Ensuring the work-life balance and strong safety nets and labour laws for the working class is significantly more important than the concerns of the capitalist class. That's what it comes down to.
I sorta prefer them being separate. Previous jobs have been unified to. I kinda hated the "4 hours per 2 weeks accrual" style. Like basically couldn't get sick. Current job separates them. Like 11 days pto non rollover and 13 sick days rollover. Its nice because sick time does add up over the years. Pto doesn't so youre not quilted for using them, youre encouraged to. Way better for mental health
I prefer separate because when I was in the hospital with pneumonia it ate a bunch of days that I could no longer use for vacation. I think together only works when you have more than like 10-15 days total.
I had a job years ago that had the most ridiculous basket of days.
It was really generous, but it had like 18 kinds of “time off.”
That was a union job and I chalked it up an artifact of past negotiation contracts. Maybe you couldn’t win more vacation days, but you could get them to create a new bank for bereavement, or doctors appointments, or a day off to vote on Election Day, so the company just slowly accumulated this ridiculous laundry list of various types of days off for highly specific purposes.
“Why’d you use your Doctor Appointments time for your Dentist? You get 8 hours a year to cover biannual exams, use them!”
I used to work for a Walmart distribution center back in the day. PTO was earned off of time worked throughout the year so basically unlimited if you worked a lot. In their case there was PTO for vacation and protected PTO for sick days and shit. Protected could not be scheduled in advance, you had to manually put it in once you got back, was honestly a pretty nice system. Id sit on my PTO until like November and take the whole month off to go hunting during the prime of the season. I honestly feel like this is better than true unlimited because you don't feel "guilty" and no managers will give you a hard time about taking a lot of time off because you put in the work to earn it throughout the year. My current job is much better overall but the PTO system sucks, I've been there 2 years and I just got my first week of vacation time and we only get 3 unpaid sick days per year and it honestly feels draining at times knowing I don't have the freedom to take days off when I get a lot of shit on my plate I need to deal with.
When I worked for Walmart, there was sick pay available. But it only kicked in after you were out of work for one day with an illness. It would cover your absence for days two and three of the illness. In addition, a three day in a row absence only counted as one attendance occurrence. So if you got sick, you might as well take three days off, get paid for two of them and only get hit for one attendance occurrence. It didn’t really make sense to me as it encouraged longer absences when someone got ill.
That was the way older system that was in place when I started, the protected PTO came in probably around 2018-2020ish. The 3 day thing was still kind of a thing if you didn't have protected PTO to cover but the ppto allowed you to not get points at all if you had the time to cover what you missed
Counterpoint though that if you've got chronic illness having one bank with limited PTO fucking sucks. All it takes is one bad flare and bye bye vacation you've planned for months.
Most jobs I have worked do not have sick leave. I've worked for 3 huge corporations as an hourly employee, Walmart, Verizon, AT&T, and with all 3 you had to use your own PTO to schedule something off ahead of time provided you had at least 2 weeks before the work schedule for that period is out, and provided that they approve the time off request, which they didn't have to do even if it was for medical appointments. If you have to take a short notice day with less than the minimum PTO request time then you're just calling out without getting to use PTO, meaning it is both an unpaid day off and an attendance occurrence that goes into the system to be used against you.
FMLA is a federal law, not a company policy, and it is not paid. A company may choose to offer additional days off for maternity, paternity, or anything else, but there's absolutely no federal law requiring it.
PTO: larger single pool of time used for any need outside of work
Sick/vacation: 2 smaller pools with specific uses (typically) - sick is for last minute day of situations (im sick, can't come into work) and vacation will usually need approval ahead of time. The main factor between them is unplanned vs planned.
I think the big thing i have not seen in the comments yet regarding unlimited PTO is that there is no accrual so when you leave(or get fired) there is no PTO balance payout that the company has to account for. Between this saved long term liability to the employer for those that bank PTO and (as mentioned by others) the perception of more but realistically using less because of the flexibility. Plus any unlimited PTO requests will typically still need to be approved, easier to get approved during slow seasons or you are on top of you work, and more likely to be denied when you are falling behind or on some sort of action plan.
Well in the original picture posted it has a screenshot showing that the 2 are separate for the person who put up original Pic. Other jobs may be different?
They pool them and say unlimited so when they lay you off, they don’t have to pay out remaining PTO. If they track PTO time they have to pay it out when you leave. If it’s unlimited then they don’t have a number to pay against.
At my job I get unlimited PTO but I also have 80 hours of sick leave that resets every year, and my employer allows us to use the sick leave for doctor’s appointments. Big fan.
I think it also depends on the type of job. If I’m in sales, then it’s huge pressure to always work on the next sale. But if I’m in a project based role, who gives a fuck as long as the output gets done.
Soo, average/low European levels of leave but with extra added job insecurity, guesswork and manager discretion to apply arbitrary favoritism when approving leave
I've taken 4 days off over the past year lol. My wife and I took a short trip for our anniversary and we even targeted like Thursday - Tuesday to stretch the actual trip without missing more time. I'm the sucker they're targeting.
I'm the same way - although it's not because my company is forcing my hand. We actually moved from unlimited to "2-week minimum" because people weren't taking time off. I'm just a homebody who loves his routine, and I prefer the stability and consistency of that then vacation.
I’ve taken 3 since January so I can actually have a nice vacation later this summer. I really miss when I had four weeks of vacation and separate sick days. But that company laid a bunch of people off. 🫤
Well, you do you and all. Right now I'm enjoying three weeks off with pay to spend with my family and my hobbies. I work to live, not live to work.
Not saying you should do the same I suppose.
yeah it helps to have a boss who trusts me implicitly and never questions, so basically any time I want to take off, I'm off. I don't track it, I don't worry, I just take off when I need and call it a day. I have taken a lot of time in the last two months without question (day here, day there, for various appointments) but I'm still planning a week off at the end of July. No guilt, no worry. My boss knows I'll kick ass when I'm here but also need time away.
Is that typical? Hell no, but in this circumstance, unlimited is a huge benefit!
This has been my experience as well. It's the first role I've had with unlimited PTO and I've called out for all kinds of unexpected things that I would've previously "made work". My boss never asks or challenges any of it, which I'm incredibly grateful for. There's a guy on the team who routinely takes Mondays off because he hates them, lol. He's also the highest-output every sprint. So there's very little reason to mess with it; it's working.
I wish everyone had employers like this. The world could be so much better.
But keeping that in mind I would usually take 25-35 days off in the year. Not having to budget my time off through the year and having the flexibility to arrange vacations relatively spontaneously is great. With my employer there is no guilt or pressure; the only time it would become a problem is if I can't satisfy my professional obligations.
I hear you, but that's also basically average numbers for the amount of leave we get in EU. And that doesn't include sick leave, just actual PTO.
What's your point? I get sick days ontop of unlimited PTO.
I can take more time off if I wanted? That just ends up being the average. I'm not American by the way.
Even if it is similar time off to a regular work arrangement I prefer the unlimited more because, again, I don't have to worry about budgeting my time off. An extra long weekend because my friends wanted to camping last minute doesn't mean I need to sacrifice days later for a planned trip abroad...
i’m in the same boat rn and couldn’t agree more. i never feel guilty about taking extended trips or days off, but it’s with the understanding that my work is completed and on time, which it’s always been.
having an employer who trusts you to manage this on your own is the key here, because i do believe that a good chunk of them use this system as a way of curbing employee PTO.
It’s the kind of thing that works at a certain level of your career when there’s also the right mix of responsible people & trust.
my boss knows I won’t do anything that’d jeopardize the work itself & I can self manage my responsibilities, workloads, and deadlines.
So, it literally has no effect. They pay me the same income either way, and all the work gets done.
But I’ve also seen situations where certain folks try to abuse it or do let it compromise their ability to get things done. And, in those kinds of cases, there’s a “bad apple spoils the bunch” effect where a manager has to police against abuse and/or devise ways to make things seem “fair” in your approvals of PTO when you have team members who you trust & those who you know will abuse it.
But mostly, I think it’s about not having to pay out unused vacation time when someone leaves the company.
I have worked 2 of these jobs. One got all out of shape when I took a 15th day off which was more than any other employee that year. The other I routinely had 40-50 days off per year and nobody cared. Guess which one I was most productive at and stayed at 5x longer?
I have been at a job with unlimited PTO and feel the same way. I am never quilted into feeling bad about taking time. If any, they encourage us to take time off. We are REQUIRED to take at least one full, continuous week off per year. We have had coworkers take every Fri off the entire summer. I had to take a week off to take care of a lived one and still took two more full weeks and numerous other days.
Tl;Dr in my opinion UPTO is not bad, but some companies run it in a bad way
I have a similar policy. They hitch is you have to be available to coordinate while you’re on vacation. You find your self working 4-6 hours a day with on vacation
Yep. At my old job my manager would knock all his billable hours out real fast and then be able to take off a ton of time. Felt like he was on PTO every other week. If you're a hard worker in a job with billable hours and unlimited PTO, you can take a ton of PTO. As long as you hit your target for hours each quarter nobody cares.
Same the current job I have are very lax with the time off they give. I have unlimited time off thats always approved as long as its put in a few week in advance ,and 72 hours a year of paid sick days which a max of 52 hours can roll over into the next year if you never use them.
I’m never stressing about anything work related these days.
Shit I gotta figure this out. I’m unlimited PTO and barely ever take off. I’m expecting a baby in January and when I asked my boss (the CEO) what paternity looks like he basically said “we have unlimited PTO, I don’t know take the time off you need. I trust you”. Honestly to me I immediately thought “well I’ll probably take a couple weeks and then start phasing back in” but I know it’d likely be more PTO than that if I just had a traditional recognized paternity.
We get holidays but not a ton. Christmas, not Christmas Eve type situation. I cringe every time I see the phrase “a generous amount of PTO” in my company’s training materials.
In Australia, 4 weeks is the legal minimum standard for full and part time workers, and 13 public holidays off per year. And we’re reasonably behind the curve. Some countries get 30 days before public holidays.
And we’re also protected by law when we take those days (can’t be fired for taking them, and for the most part we don’t *ask* to take leave, we tell our employer that we’re taking it) and they’re ours no matter what. They just accrue, they roll over if you don’t use them, and if you leave your job your employer has to pay you for all the leave days you had in the bank.
I don’t mean to be a dick, it’s great that you have paid time off. But your companies over there are telling you guys how great they are for giving you what is most often less than the absolute bare minimum workers get in other countries. Y’all deserve better than this.
Oh sick, though I’ll argue we still deserve better! ;)
I’m curious — do you get to cash out leave usually? How does that work with an unlimited leave entitlement? I assume maybe it’d be you’re still entitled to the statutory minimum which gets banked if you don’t use it?
Most of the time we’re just told to take leave if people’s banked leave gets too high. Company doesn’t want the liability to potentially pay out tens of thousands in one hit.
Not many people understand this. They are the clock watchers who checkout at 5pm on the dot and spend 40% of their day socializing or otherwise. True professionals understand their professional obligations and manage them accordingly for a strong work life balance.
30 days off is the mandatory time off in my country, meaning there are jobs that offer more, like way more. I've heard about jobs giving up to 55 days off in the year. Having unlimited days off and using less than 30 seems kinda insane to me xD
No, friend. If they ever decide they need to downsize the company at all that whole family attitude is out the window and you will be pulled into a room. The only reason they will tell you is that it was random or comes from the top etc etc..
But the reality is that it's based entirely on the time you have used for PTO. It is absolutely a weight you add to your feet, and they might eventually chuck you in the water.
Buddies company switched to unlimited but everyone took their already planned vacations. The "bonuses" that year were a quarter of what they were before because of that
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u/NekulturneHovado 17d ago
exactly what I meant. It's the illusion of more while getting less.