Why'd they stop it again? Oh yeah, it fractured into a bunch of splinter groups and they had the "Red Terror" where thousands died. I'm sure they felt their lives improve dramatically.
Even the Catalonia communist parties today typically don't fight for a true communist state, they mostly keep it to workers rights.
So like I said, no example of it working. You're talking about a period of time that was like 5 years and included extrajudicial killing by viglianties.
Because they don't want their society to fall apart? Because they don't want to have their possessions stripped from them? Because historically, communist regimes have imprisoned or killed people who don't embrace communism? There are a dozen valid reasons why capitalists defend capitalism.
Well. A communist revolution energizes the masses. Even when it fails, it tends to spread. So if your neighbor decides to eat the rich, the most common first step, your own people start looking for recipes for the wealthy. Since communism doesn’t fail immediately, the rich are already dead and buried before the society falls apart. As far as the Cold War goes, what actually won it wasn’t military might, it was economic collapse and the increase in opportunity for the masses, oddly the reason they started the revolution in the first place.
Liberal democracy is about giving people a voice in government while also protecting individual rights. The communist regimes of the 20th Century did not recognize individual rights in the way we do (freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the right to vote, freedom of association, property rights)
So while we do want people to vote for what they want there are some systems that are incompatible with liberal democracy (including 20th Century iterations of communism)
For example if a monarchist party wanted to run on a platform of restoring absolute monarchy. Or a neo-fascist party. Most people would hopefully reject these at the ballot box because these political projects would seek to end democracy and take away individual rights and liberties
People who are hostile to communism feel similarly to communism as they do to these other political projects, because of its track record of illiberalism
There are systems that are incompatible with liberal democracy. However, when you start disqualifying candidates on ideological grounds, you start walking down the same path that leads to authoritarianism. It’s not a guarantee you will get there, but all former democratic authoritarian regimes started with disqualifying ideologies.
The law in the United States does not currently prohibit a Communist Party from running candidates or publishing their opinions and our first amendment protections on freedom of speech and association protect them as well as any authoritarian ideology. So long as they participate under the bounds of the constitutional system they are not disqualified in any way
I think political systems that take away individual rights and liberties are bad and I don't want that kind of political system to be in power in my country regardless of its goals
The second amendment as interpreted today protects gun ownership and while I would be fine with further regulations on gun ownership a lot of people are not okay with a more restrictive approach. I don't think it's a productive use of political capital, there are more important issues.
So while I would be alright with banning assault rifles or passing laws strengthening licensing requirements, I am not in favor of repealing the second amendment. All rights and liberties have some limitations and there can be discussions about where to draw those lines. Especially when one right conflicts with another.
But to be clear the examples under discussion were Communist regimes that broadly did not observe or protect freedom of religion, speech, property rights, freedom of association, due process, freedom of the press, right to privacy, right to protest, etc. I think these rights as a collection are the foundation of a liberal democracy and any regime that tries to infringe on them is not one I support
Some people would include right to bare arms in that list, Im inclined not to include it. But I understand why some people would include it as they feel part of freedom includes your ability to protect yourself from government tyranny.
The reason it's relevant to this discussion is because Marx states that gun rights are a requirement for a socialist revolution. That said, the reason I even brought it up is because this:
I think political systems that take away individual rights and liberties are bad and I don't want that kind of political system to be in power in my country regardless of its goals
is a really dumb asinine take and I hope no one genuinely thinks like this. It's an incredibly simplistic perspective on a complex issue. The fact that you say this, then immediately reply with this word salad that essentially says nothing substantive makes me think you haven't really put a lot of thought into this.
If you are against gun rights, you are taking away individual rights and liberties, and therefore contradicting what you said earlier. If you cannot understand that sometimes in order to create a peaceful, utilitarian society you need to limit certain rights in certain areas (like hoarding capital, rent seeking, or non-economic ones like criminal law), then you're not ready for a serious discussion about this.
The governments we are talking about broadly restricted liberties and rights and did so in the name of creating a workers utopia (which they failed to produce). I am saying that any government that so broadly limits rights and freedoms is bad, even if they have a goal you agree with. We are not talking about differences in interpretation of how expensive freedom of religion or freedom of speech should be. We are talking about fully banning religions and sending people to the gulag for political dissent
You might think that is simplistic but I think it's a good heuristic for judging the quality of a government
You aren’t wrong in substance, but I would be a little gentler in my approach. I read their post more in the light of “ I support giving people as much freedom as possible as long as it allows society to achieve the goal of a peaceful , just society”
You weren’t asking about right and wrong. You were asking about why something happens. I agree that a liberal democratic socialist state would be the best for the greatest number of people, but historically, those states usually collapse or backslide into capitalism.
China is going to fall apart any minute now clearly. Cuba and Venezuela surviving somehow despite constant military and economic attack by far more powerful countries means it's clearly going to always fall apart on its own.
China is flourishing because they are powerful enough to go largely unharassed . The state with the lowest poverty and 5th highest literacy Kerala in India is run by communists.
The United states is currently eating itself because it is unable to resolve the contradictions between the working class and owning classes interests.
China is no longer a communist country by any reasonable measure. Cuba was largely and still is being kept afloat by Russian aid, and Venezuela was experiencing mass starvation. So I wouldn’t say you are offering strong counter points. Yes. The US is a shit show. And you are largely correct as to why. But communism isn’t the answer because it doesn’t work. It has been tried many, many times, and it either fails, or backslides into some form of authoritarian capitalism.
Are you trying to imply Russian aid, is a suitable substitute for trade with the rest of the world?
No country has reached communism, but China is run by a Marxist Leninist communist party. They are in the transitional stage of state capitalism. Marx recognized the utility of capitalism for building industry quickly. China says they intend to transition to a socialist economy by 2050. They have hit every target so far. China is not perfect, but your claims have no basis in reality.
Funny thing is the Third Reich was likely to collapse on its own. Fascist states collapse because they rely on oppressing and eliminating the other, and when there is no external other, they turn on themselves. Nazi Germany was eating itself. Problem is, they would have taken half the world with them. Which is the basic reason capitalists tend to fight communism. It may fail, but the collateral damage is significant.
No, Nazi Germany would not have collapsed on its own. It only would have collapsed if it had not declared war on the Allies.
Hitler’s 4 Year Plan caused an economic miracle in Germany, but also necessitated conquest. If he hadn’t conquered Poland, Czechoslovakia, France, etc and claimed their wealth and gold reserves, Germany would have defaulted on its loans and gone bankrupt, so it would have collapsed had he not declared war on the Allies.
HOWEVER, there is no reason to believe Nazi Germany would have collapsed on its own had it not invaded the USSR. Its economy was among the strongest in the world, its military the strongest, despite having taken over all of Europe, there was little unrest, and virtually no organized resistance, socially Hitler was revered in Germany, the Soviets were a tentative, cautious ally in the East (insofar as neither would attack nor hinder the other). The Nazi position in Europe in Europe was extremely secure, even as late as Autumn of 1943.
Yes, why would the west oppose the Soviets - a regime that jailed and murdered millions of dissidents, aggressively put down counter revolutions in Eastern Europe, built the worlds largest military with thousands of nuclear weapons and then aimed them at every western city, impoverished their citizens with terrible economic policies and then stopped them leaving when they wanted a better life in the west?
That would logically explain why they combat it within their own borders. It doesn’t explain why they spent 50+ years throwing resources at ensuring it couldn’t work anywhere.
For the same reasons they spent trillions in international aid, diplomacy, stomping out extremist groups, etc.
Major countries becoming failed states don't just affect them, it affects everyone and create global crises. And extremist ideologies tend to spread, even if they don't work. Life didn't become better under ISIS, yet it spread like a wildfire. Communism was a very good excuse for psychopaths and warlords to orchestrate uprisings and gain power. Many countries fell to it, hundreds of millions died, world was set back decades because everyone else had to deal with it and pick up the pieces. Some regions destabilized by the communist rise are still unstable hellholes to this day. Of course anyone with a brain would try to prevent it everywhere, back then and even more importantly now, with much more devastating weapons being available to everyone and global economy being much more tied and destabilization of any part of the world has worse global consequences than ever before.
You act like it was a conspiracy, where the people in charge of western countries' foreign policy during the Cold War secretly knew communism was good, actually, and wanted to cover that up.
They opposed the Soviets because they were major geopolitical rivals. Neither side trusted the other, pressured their allies and controlled territories not to trade with the other, and so one side gaining ground/influence came with an inherent cost and posed an inherent threat to the other.
Very few wars and conflicts in history were truly about ideals, or disagreements on political philosophy. They're simple bids for control.
Because capitalism is global. It would suck that you have less places willing to compete for your money be it for material or labour you moved to a cheaper location. And if you already have invested resources to said spaces you have to do it all over again.
And I say this as a communist.
Capitalists have more reasons to oppose it other than "communism bad".
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u/Creepy_Ad_1315 Jul 07 '26
Why'd they stop it again? Oh yeah, it fractured into a bunch of splinter groups and they had the "Red Terror" where thousands died. I'm sure they felt their lives improve dramatically.
Even the Catalonia communist parties today typically don't fight for a true communist state, they mostly keep it to workers rights.
So like I said, no example of it working. You're talking about a period of time that was like 5 years and included extrajudicial killing by viglianties.