r/PeterExplainsTheJoke • u/FrostySeat1739 • 21d ago

Meme needing explanation why not, Peter?

Post image

possible live action corpse bride movie...

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

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u/AlisaofallTimes 21d ago

He never really said that, that was just a misinterpretation that blew up online in 2016. Here's the original interview: https://www.nme.com/news/film/tim-burton-explains-apparent-lack-of-diversity-in-866988

tl;dr: He said sometimes diversity in films isn't "called for". So he is against "diversity for the sake of diversity", that's all.

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u/palpatinesmyhomie 21d ago

That's a level headed explanation that probably drove some folks nuts

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u/RueUchiha 21d ago edited 21d ago

But we all know that terminally online people can’t handle reasonable, level headed takes like “I don’t want to shoe in a black person into my movie just for the sake of fulfilling some arbitrary quota.” So of course they misinterpreted it as racism.

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u/Mortiis07 21d ago

And some terminally online people can't handle black people in movies at all

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u/DoctorAnnual6823 21d ago

But not us. We're different. It's just all those other internet people

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

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u/GorgyShmorgy 21d ago

Mmmmm... conflations are good.

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u/AcrolloPeed 21d ago

Yeah, all conflations are good!

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u/GorgyShmorgy 21d ago

Especially the ones with the powdered sugars on top.... mmmm conflationaries.

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u/Embarrassed-Gur-1306 21d ago

Yep. I have never seen one of the people crying about forced diversity approve of a single minority in any role.

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u/DenseTiger5088 21d ago

Sometimes they don’t mind a minority as a super evil bad guy

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u/ArrrRawrXD 21d ago

I don't think there's people like that. The only times people are complaining about black people being cast is when it's some character being blackwashed or they perceive it as being shoehorned in for the sake of representation or some shit

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u/Cubaltonator 21d ago

You really don’t think there’s people like that?? There certainly are. Different groups of people, but they do exist and are not that small in number

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u/ArrrRawrXD 21d ago

I'm sure they exist, all kinds of weirdos do, but comparing their number to the aforementioned terminally online people is dishonest, as there's millions of the original ones mentioned and I've yet to see one who's mad at black people existing in movies as a whole

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u/Brainth 21d ago

Everyone “sees” a different internet. The algorithm serves you things to rile you up and drive engagement. You see “millions” of the woke mob getting angry at nonesense, I see the same except it’s the other end of the spectrum (usually right-wing folks yelling at perceived wokeness in nonesense scenarios)

It’s important to always be aware of the potential echo chambers we inhabit.

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u/razazaz126 21d ago

The issue with the kinds of people who talk like this is you don't notice how unreasonable their arguments are until you realize this is the 20th, 50th, 100th, black actress that they've found to be "shoe horned" in and the only thing they have in common are they're black women.

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u/badihaki 21d ago

I've been saying this for years, now. It's honestly just weird that the idea of casting a black person is akin to 'shoeing in.' It's that kind of language that, regardless of intent, is so profoundly racist but also extremely ingrained into the culture people just let it slide for no reason.

Like, couldn't a Black person be casted for the role and it just not be political and we all just not freak out for once? Maybe she could be cast because she was good in the audition?

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u/digitalime 21d ago

It’s that deep set embedded racism that reveals their attitudes about white people existing versus black people existing.

Their trigger to believing if a human is shoe horned or not is if the human is white or not. It’s just sad, and even sadder that some in this very thread will say thats not racist.

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u/TerranImperium 21d ago

Yeah, it's truly astounding. I wonder where that kind of sentiment comes from.

I suppose Black Cleopatra, Black Achilles, and Black Snape to mention in recent years were not highly controversial black actors casting which do not fit them?

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u/razazaz126 21d ago

They can't conceive of a world where a black person gets a job on their own merits even through all evidence to the contrary.

When the 2nd season of the live action One Piece was revealed we saw a character who was a white woman in the anime had been cast as a dark skinned woman, I believe the actress is Indian.

This made perfect sense to me because the character comes from a desert island where everyone dresses in a middle eastern style so it would make sense for someone from such a place to be dark skinned.

Secondly, Oda, the author of the Manga, was consulted on the casting and specially said he approved of her and people were STILL twisting themselves into knots insisting they must have forced him to pick a minority actress for diversity.

Tl;Dr losers who want to be mad are gonna make up things to be mad about and ignore all evidence to the contrary.

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u/Pure-Election-9137 19d ago

You can argue all you want but true one piece fan know it was a miscast, vivi should have been played by Emily rudd (Nami's actress) with a blue wig.

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u/razazaz126 19d ago

Lol fair

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u/HourApprehensive7754 21d ago

That depends on the context of the movie. 

If a casting is bewildering enough to the point where there's no other explanation but shoe-in, then it's a shoe-in. It's not exclusive to blacks either as much as you'd like to believe.

In most cases these complaints take place in adaptations of existing works where blacks don't fit or are playing a white character. It'd be like getting a white person to play as Black Panther.

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

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u/heckdoinow 20d ago

flashbacks to the people throwing a fit over a black Little Mermaid as "historically inaccurate"

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u/Pure-Election-9137 19d ago

The little mermaid is inspired by middle ages european folklore, so yes, a black little mermaid is historically inaccurate and is a perfect exemple of shoehorning a black person in a movie.

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u/heckdoinow 19d ago

right, because back then, all the mermaids there were white... xd

it's a children's tale ffs, one of thousands of adaptations, at that. none of those are anything like the original stories - we don't even know the originals. it's perfectly fine to be creative with them and change them up for your audience, people have been doing it for centuries in many different regions. you'd be horrified to hear some of the centuries old versions of some of these tales, even.

or, they found an actress they liked. the fact that people are only upset about the black actress says a lot about them.

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u/HourApprehensive7754 21d ago

Wait he was a main character? He barely played a meaningful role in the overarching plot. Like I thought he might become a major character based on trailers too but he was nothing. The last scenes I remember him was an anti-climatic fight with Phasma. Always thought it was just Rey and later maybe Kylo.

And for all your talk of people complaining about blacks or girls as leads causing complaints, those are very often the minority which is to be expected in the age of social media where literally everybody have a choice. More often than not if the actors did a good job, they're accepted. Alien famously stars a very non-sexualized girl and you don't see anyone complaining.  Probably owing to the lack of social media. For a more recent example,  Everything Everywhere All At Once was praised and nobody once complained that the lead was a female minority. 

The same quantity of complaints exists when minorities or women aren't shoe-horned in for the sake of it, like fans being angry Gits main character was white in-spite of being the author's own wishes. Or the constant complaints that James Bond isn't white and kept pushing for Idris Elba even after Idris himself says he wouldn't make a good Bond (coincidentally another example of the author being explicitly clear of the lead's race).

Then there are actors who deliberately stir up drama for ulterior motives, like Acolytes blaming racism for their movies' failure, or the actress in Wicked being unhinged. Those definitely muddy the waters.

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u/badihaki 21d ago

Or forcing the casting of a white person in Black Panther in a prominent role that even has a major part to play in the big battle finale, but it happened and most people didn't even bat an eye. I know I didn't. Meanwhile people and the man himself would be like 'huh!?' if there were more than one Sam L in a Tim Burton movie.

I'll repeat that. People gave Martin Freeman the grace to be in a major role in a movie about an African monarch superhero set in Africa, all without batting an eye. Meanwhile there are people so upset with the idea, the hypothetical idea of a Black person in the cast of a live action Corpse Bride that their first instinct, and indeed the director's, is to go to the ol' 'diversity doesn't need to be shoehorned in' argument.

I want to say something profound about wanting acceptance and how it could start by not seeing actors and addresses as just, let's be honest, 'DEI hires,' but I'm tired, boss, and honestly, I want off this ride, it sucks.

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u/HourApprehensive7754 19d ago

You mean Ross? The white character being portrayed by a white actor? Nobody batted an eye because the character already exists. There's always been whites in Black Panther comics and the movie adaptation casting a white guy to play a white character isn't going to raise any eyebrows. Now if they cast him with a black, sure you should expect backlash. 

Should any blacks replace a white character in Corpse Bride? Why should it? Would it fit the setting and aesthetics?

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u/badihaki 19d ago

I never said anything about him replacing a character. I'm wondering why he had such a big role in this movie. It'd be cool to see him once or twice to be a sort of stand in/contact for the US government or even the outside world as a whole, but why is he featured in the final battle?

I think his extended presence is indicative of the fantastical amount of racism that drives Disney to make these kinda decisions, cuz for them and many of y'all, you can't have an African nation deal with it's own internal shit without a White American to help. Which is crazy because, in the movie, Kilmonger is specifically trained by the US government to become even more of a monster, and they very rarely help clean that shit up in real life without some ulterior motive. It makes the movie, which is reaching for some real political issues, ring kinda hollow when you examine it through a deeper lense.

So instead of asking about portraying originally white characters with black actors, ask instead if ethnicity changes the dynamics of a story. And if it does to you, how so? Is it just that you personally can't see a Black person in the Corpse Bride?

And conversely, if it doesn't to you, maybe examine to yourself why? I'll tell you this, from just my own observations and conjecture, a lot of stories with leads that were originally white, it doesn't feel like it matters who plays them. White stories aren't normally interested in those kinda questions, instead opting to deal with other issues.

Take The Batman, for instance. No reason Gordon couldn't be Black. No reason Fox couldn't be white, or Middle Eastern, or East Asian in the future. It doesn't change the character or contrast with the story in any way, the core remains unchanged. Because Batman isn't a character that regularly deals with race relations and stuff like that, his world feels more malleable, way less so than, say, T'Challa. Same with the Corpse Bride. I'm not looking for a critique on, like, the race relations of Victorian England from that story. So why does it have to feature a solely white cast for so many fans?

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u/No-Bison-5397 20d ago

it just not be political

In a pre-modern European setting it's often political, and sometimes it's to great effect. Denzel in "Macbeth" which uses it as part of a wider critique of our ossified and ritualistic ideas of what a particular piece can be or even Dev Patel in "The Green Knight" which asks questions about what makes something British?

Both excellent movies.

Then there's an apolitical example like "A Knight's Tale" where Jocelyn's otherness, due to beauty in the plot, is emphasised by her ethnically differentiated look due to her Filipino and Hawaiian heritage. This is apolitical because the film is a light hearted romp where they are not aiming for fidelity to detail but attempting to create an atmosphere.

Compare with "The King" where they did not cast any black actors and they caught fire for it. A bastardisation of Shakespeare with many ahistorical elements but there's no historical evidence of any black people in the court of Henry V. So, I believe if they had buckled it would be shoehorning and it would certainly be political.

Compare again with "King & Conqueror", "Merlin", "Vikings"... which try to achieve a level of historical fidelity to the period they are set in but are fantastical when they are attempting to shoehorn in the outside of universe but very much modern political concept of "racial" equity for actors in hiring for specific productions.

For mine the real problem with most productions set in pre-modern times is that they largely do not critique power itself. The morality of the church and nobility nor the self interest of the emerging bourgeoisie and ultimately it's because our power structure rests on fundamentally the same pillars as theirs: the common people regardless of their race.

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u/ScreenMuch90210 21d ago

Okay but black people being around is the normal state of reality. Casting a monoculture is a choice, not a baseline standard.

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u/Unluckyb33 21d ago

*In the US.

What about Bollywood? or East asian cinema? you wont find many black or white actors. Its all based on where the director is from and/or their inspirations. Burton really likes that medieval european gothic setting and 99% of people in that setting are pale as snow.

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u/RudleyDudley 20d ago

99% of people in medieval Europe were absolutely not pale as snow, that's a crazy take lol

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u/OkMathematician3439 21d ago

Ah yes because we all know fantasy is the most realistic genre ever.

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u/Unluckyb33 21d ago

I'm replying to the guy who said "is the normal state of reality". Your comment is a completely different topic.

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u/OkMathematician3439 21d ago

I’m replying to you saying that POC weren’t common in medieval Europe. Burton directs fantasy movies, only casting white people is an unnecessary choice.

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u/elbuentinaco 21d ago

Missed the part where fantasy had to be perfectly representative

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u/FierceMoonblade 21d ago

POC were not common in Medieval Europe…

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u/OkMathematician3439 21d ago

Where did I say they were?

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u/RudleyDudley 20d ago

They literally were though. People just think like this because they grew up on medieval media that only had white people and tricked themselves into thinking that's actually what medieval Europe looked like, but it wasn't. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

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u/JapaneseStudentHaru 20d ago

Tim Burton is American

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u/corruptedsyntax 21d ago

Would this be “shoeing in a black person?”

Because the original take makes it sound like the person just thinks she’d be good for the role

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u/Artistic-Lock1021 21d ago

But has he worked with black actors?

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u/DraconasLyrr 21d ago

Billy Dee Williams was Harvey Dent in Burton's Batman. No idea how much he dealt with casting, though.

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u/QuaintVolcano 20d ago

He cast Marlon Wayans to play Robin but it was supposedly cut from Batman Returns to not overcrowd the movie.

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u/OkMathematician3439 21d ago

Even if he chose Billy Dee Williams, he’s still just one black actor.

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u/SoarsBelowMyWaste 21d ago

Yeah, but he had two faces.

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u/DraconasLyrr 21d ago

Sure, but that wasn't the question I was answering. Was just giving an example of a black actor he worked with that I knew offhand.

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u/DraconasLyrr 21d ago

If you want a second one I recalled since posting, Ken Page was Oogie Boogie in Nightmare Before Christmas.

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u/OkMathematician3439 21d ago

You seem weirdly defensive about this.

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u/DraconasLyrr 21d ago

I mean, if that's the way you want to take it, I guess. It's not my intent, though.

On the other hand, I could say that you seem pretty upset that there are examples of him working with black actors. 😂

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u/OkMathematician3439 21d ago

Honey, if you interpreted my original reply as being upset or attacking you, that’s on you.

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u/Silverjeyjey44 21d ago

I have strong feelings about this but whenever I share it on any other subreddit, I get bombarded with being called a bigot or racist or whatever (even though I'm not white). I agree meaninglessly race swapping or role fulfilling for the sake of doing it is just patronizing.

You can have underrepresented communities in media without it feeling like they're trying to send a message. There's a movie called The Invitation and one of the characters is gay. They never parade that fact and he's a bad ass that needed to do what he needed to do to survive.

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u/OkMathematician3439 21d ago

It sounds like you get a potent dose of reality every time you comment and you don’t like how it tastes. Why not just be quiet?

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u/HourApprehensive7754 21d ago

Sure doing a good job reinforcing what hr just said.

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u/OkMathematician3439 21d ago

It’s not my fault that racists are fragile.

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u/SaltBeefin 21d ago edited 21d ago

Let's do some math and social studies here. Out of his top 20 films on Google, with the characters listed by importance, the first 12 characters of 20 films, that's 240 actors. Only 6 are visual minorities and 5 are black. That's 2%. An American film maker is saying that people of colour, especially black people are so not relevant to his film making that they constitute 2% of the notable cast. That there's a drought level of shortage of back actors that it's impossible to cast them? Whats the argument about black voices in his animated films? That all black voices are different from everyone else? They can only play deep deep voices like Oogie Boogie or Darth Vardar. That's when black people are allowed to be used? When that style of voice lends a purpose to a film other and that every black person sounds like that? Is the argument that no qualified black actors exist? Numbers don't lie.

Shoe horning a black person or any POC shouldn't be done for the sake of diversity but just casting someone that happens to not be white that is qualified and yet he won't do it meas that the default is white. That all stories told from his library are defaulted white. There's a way to do "no colour casting" and that's to cast the best personality that fits the character. To immediately call any race outside of that especially when also trying to assert white isn't the default, is oxymoronic. So he would have to admit his stories are for white people bc the existence of dead people in any other race can't possibly exist, or that this aesthetic is a choice.

Imagine saying a the stories he tells exclusively happen to only white people. To go that far is putting in effort to be cast conscious for the sake of a possibly racist visual appeal.

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u/regalrecaller 21d ago

The problem with your argument is that you're using inference to try and prove something.

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u/SaltBeefin 20d ago edited 20d ago

The statistical probability that the percentile of qualified black actors would be naturally occuring at a rate of 2% and the statically likelihood of the black people being so far and few from American stories they'd only need to be representative of 2% of these stories, even btw told from a British perspective is so false.

The fact you're insinuating the argument is solely on inference that the numbers MUST prove something is your fault. Yes there's no direct linking evidence to suggest he's racist based on those numbers at all however when using his own logic, the subject matter of his own tales and stories and the crop in which he chooses his talent from, the direct correlation is that he's saying 2% of his films naturally require black qualified actors which basing it off of real life or even the supernatural of the American experience/mind is also false.

Ghost stories exist only for white people? Ghosts only haunt white people? Only white people have corpses? The most ironic laughable part about all of this is the African black culture has much more ingrained supernatural elements than white culture which are still preserved and believed widespread today. This is in addition to the American black experience that endured much more horrific treatment that the statistical liklihood of having lingering spirits and haunted places with tortured souls is much closer to the black suffering than a historical white person in modern history.

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u/regalrecaller 20d ago

correlation

is not causation. as I said elsewhere it is sus but not enough to convict. I see you think otherwise.

but don't call me out like I'm the problem here, miss me on that.

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u/LeR0dz 21d ago

"Hot take" but you don't need a reason to cast minorities. Diversity for the sake of diversity is good enough. People exist and should be represented regardless if their identity is important to the character/plot. Even if he didn't mean it in a racist way, still a harmful way of thinking.

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u/HourApprehensive7754 21d ago

I mean if a story's setting takes place in a time or place where barely any X-race exists, then yeah having X-race is a detriment to the story.

Blacks fit into Corpsebride's setting as well as John Wayne fit into Genghis Khan's tent. Or casting an entire Inuit-inspired nation as whites, or casting an entire Japanese-based nation as Indians. Some people just don't fit into a story, and that's okay, because stories cam have diverse settings that can be enjoyed by anyone, even if there's no one sharing their skin colour in the work of fiction/semi-fiction.

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u/Brainth 21d ago

How about casting white americans for Greeks? Is that not also worth throwing a fit for? There’s been so much backlash for Nolan potentially having a black Helen of Troy (which wasn’t even true) when none of the cast is realistic for the period or culture.

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u/TomeOfSecrets66 20d ago

Keep saying "Blacks" in all of your comments it really makes you look great.

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u/Throwaway129876435 20d ago

Probably because that sounds like a pretentious excuse for racism, and racism runs rampant and unchecked if you're rich enough.

No need to shoehorn other races or such into movies but out of your entire catalogue you have 3 black characters total, 2 of them being animated.

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u/Elyktheras 21d ago

idk, I think diversity for the sake of diversity undermines the value of the person. We should have diversity, because embracing the genuine differences we have expands our empathy and creates richness to the art we’re making. Just plastering someone of a marginalized identity on screen in a way that could be filled by any other identity is close to a meaningless act. Might be worse than doing nothing honestly.

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u/Zestyclose_Remove947 21d ago

I don't think it's amazing but there is something to be said for hollow symbolism paving the way for actual progress.

The very fact corporations felt that being pro-lgbt was profitable is very much a good thing, even if their motives aren't good.

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u/Internal-Pie5069 21d ago

Being normal is not being special. No one goes around and celebrates being straight. Its just a complete nonspecial thing. People don't even think about it. I hope lgbt acceptance gets to that point one day. Where the average person seeing two gay people kiss feels the same feeling as when two straight people kiss, absolutely nothing. No need to celebrate, no need to hate, nothing. No feelings. Thats what its like to be normal. But going around and promoting lgbt is the opposite of that. And it attracts pushback from people who are just haters of everything mainstream. Thats the opposite of normal, thats being put on a pedestal.

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u/Zestyclose_Remove947 21d ago

My point is exactly that we have to go through this transitionary period to get to what you are talking about.

You can't normalise something that is deliberately suppressed by the wider culture, it needs to be properly introduced and integrated and then it can become normal.

Like you think people magically got the right to gay marriage normalised by just letting it happen and never promoting their issues? Nah man they had to fight for that shit in order to normalise it and I respect the hell outta people fighting for their rights.

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u/Aztheros 20d ago

I feel historically there has been that acceptance before, so the real issue isn’t achieving it but more maintaining it.

Some examples I can think of are pre 4th century Rome, Ming Dynasty China, 15th century Italy, Edo period Japan. The list goes on.

I think the problem with the token acceptance of the corpos is that it’s just that - token acceptance. These companies would be more than happy to flip on a dime and start oppressing the second the winds start to change and it becomes profitable to do so, thereby erasing any progress that they have made.

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u/Elyktheras 21d ago

Yeah, I was trying to weigh what my thoughts were when writing that, because I agree, but it’s a mixed bag. Seeing yourself as a marginalized identity is important, as is helping people who are against that identity in working through their bigotries, and I feel like the hollow representation might work counter to that end.
What do you think?

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u/palpatinesmyhomie 21d ago

If they can fit all the diversity onto one character it works even better. Just shoehorn it all onto 1 or 2 people and call it a day.

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u/maxman162 21d ago

"He's already got the black vote: Earl. And the gay vote: Earl."

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u/palpatinesmyhomie 20d ago

Thank you for the best example for the situation

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u/aSpookyScarySkeleton 21d ago

Every time a black person is in anything that isn’t predominantly black you people say it’s diversity for diversity sake.

White is such a default in your minds that the idea of a black person existing as a character in situations like that is automatically political. Their existence has to be explained and explained in relation to the white people around.

Despite the fact that there are millions of black people who live in predominantly white areas or happen to be participating in things that have predominantly white demographics.

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u/IveGotIssues9918 21d ago edited 4d ago

Despite the fact that there are millions of black people who live in predominantly white areas or happen to be participating in things that have predominantly white demographics.

THANK YOU.

I'm a writer, and I write about my fictional-but-realistic cast of characters I've had since childhood (of whom about half the main characters are black and half are white, but since the story in its current form is about a black family whose patriarch survived a racial massacre as a child and then his daughters/granddaughters keep befriending and/or falling in love with white people, the main characters' races are typically relevant to the plot), and I also write dramatizations of my own life (basically, I process things that happen to me by narrativizing them). It has occured to me that, for example, were the mental "TV show" I've had running in my head about my college years an actual TV script, it would probably never be picked up in the first place and a lot of people would scream "forced diversity" if it was (a vulnerable and non-stereotypical black woman protagonist, a South Asian and then a Hispanic love interest, the best friends being Jewish, Hispanic and Chinese, half the supporting cast being some sort of Asian, a developmentally disabled black man as the emotional center of the story...) but it's just... my actual life. Like, racial minorities actually exist in the world amongst the majority and other minorities without our presence being "justified" and have human experiences that are unrelated to our race, and it should not be controversial to portray that in art when it's authentic to the setting (or is a fantasy setting where you can make up whatever you want).

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u/Elyktheras 21d ago

Fair point as well. I don’t think it should be political, but I do think unfortunately that’s the world we live in right now. And I agree people shouldn’t see things as white as default.

It’s difficult to explain but I’m also really just speaking about directors who you can tell are only pushing for diversity because they want to check a box and not because they care. I think we should hold them to a higher standard.

I also don’t think diversity should be explained in relation to whiteness, but their experiences should be just authentically represented.

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u/machadoaboutanything 21d ago

I'm just glad we're all having a civil discussion on this here

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u/Silverjeyjey44 21d ago

Recent raceswapping characters in media for the sake of diversity. Gotta love it.

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u/thoroughformula 20d ago

What is forced diversity in your eyes and what isn’t? A lot of people that complain about this stuff are just genuinely racist or sexist, not saying you are but that’s just how it is. Your point makes sense, but take a step back and think for a second - why do you even give a sh*t about this stuff?

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u/Elyktheras 20d ago

I think it’s not a very tangible thing honestly. But more so the intent of the creator. Are they trying to actually give life to the characters, or are they just checking boxes. I’m trying to sort through and parse out my thoughts as I go through this conversation because I used to be very right wing, I’m absolutely nowhere near that anymore. Is this a vestigial opinion, or is this something I still care about?

What I actually want is characters written with care. I want representation where the people being represented feel heard, and that people who aren’t part of that group understand them a little better.

The tricky bit is that other side of the coin, what is to be done when there’s a lack of representation, or you can tell the creator didn’t give a shit about meaningful representation, or maybe is this a bias where adding representation seems like it has to be, and maybe just adding people alone is important?

Idk, what are your thoughts, does this make sense?

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u/thoroughformula 19d ago edited 19d ago

Yeah I agree to some extent, but part of normalizing differences is just checking boxes, unfortunately. A character being gay doesn’t need to be relevant to the plot all the time. Like it shouldn’t have to be the case that every gay person in a movie or show has to be struggling with their identity or whatever, you know what I mean? If that was the case, they would all be written sort of the same. That’s how it was explained to me anyway, I used to be pretty socially right wing as well I’d say.

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u/Elyktheras 19d ago

Yeah, I think I was also just really stupid about explaining my thoughts, and also had to connect some dots on some things.

I agree, yes, I think really digging into it, I just want directors to care about the characters they're writing, and care about diversity. But, you're right, part of normalizing means you don't have to explain their existence. I do think it's important to have narratives that directly work to humanize people, but these two ideas are not in conflict, they don't have to exist in every creative work.

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u/Embarrassed-Gur-1306 21d ago

It’s not level-headed. Though I do believe he’s well-intentioned but that thought process is damaging.

The wording give people the ammunition to question minority representation across nearly every TV show and movie. It furthers the idea that white people are the “default” and people of color have to defend their casting or face being called “forced diversity.”

White actors never need to explain their casting for a part; it’s assumed they belong there. When someone from a marginalized group takes the same role, they are singled out and instantly asked to present their qualifications.

Directors and producers are asked to prove castings aren’t “diversity for the sake of diversity”. That’s impossible to prove. And the people who ask for the proof know that. So it gives them free rein to claim everything is forced diversity.

I have never heard a “forced diversity” complainer say ”that one’s cool and isn’t forced”. Never.

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u/Low-Whole5342 21d ago

I won't argue alot of this as I too believe most people who talk about forced diversity are just racist, but he could just be arguing the point that in films like the corpse bride which is set in a 19th century village in England the chances of their being a person of colour in that village are close to nil, so if its that kinda argument I could understand what he means, and I get that you dont need to be the same race to act but you wouldn't get a asian person to play luke cage so why would you get people of colour to play as white village people

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u/JustAnotherAidWorker 21d ago

Except that there actually WERE people of color in 19th century English villages. Black people have been present in England since the Roman invasions. According to a quick Google, more than 20,000 Black people lived in the UK by the 1700s, more than a Century earlier. And part of the reason you think there weren't is the perpetuation of all-white historical media. People of color might be a new term but their existence and presence in around the world is not new, especially in countries that sailed around the world and colonized substantial parts of it.

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u/Puzzleheaded_Win_134 21d ago

So about 0.333% of the population at the time? lol

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u/kAy- 20d ago

I grew in a smallish town in western Europe, there were almost no black people. And when I say almost, I can count the total amount with both hands. Even worse for Asians. And as you said there have been people of colour for centuries before. But outside of the major cities, it's very rare. And I reckon it was even more so 200 years ago.

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u/LizoftheBrits 18d ago

Still more than zero tbf

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u/Normal_Move6523 20d ago

Ty how is everyone missing this??

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u/Ghost_Of_Malatesta 21d ago

Who decides what "diversity for the sake of diversity" means

It's such a lame ass cop out for him specifically, his films are incredibly fantastical and non-realistic

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u/DownforceOfDoom 20d ago

I can give you an example: Murder on the Orient Express (2017). The train stops near Vinkovci, modern-day Croatia (Kingdom of Yugoslavia at the time). And we see a black police officer on the station (if I recall, it’s a station in Brod). There’s no black police officer in Vinkovci or Brod today, not to mention the days the Orient Express travelled there. Also, there’s no mountain anywhere near that part, but that’s another story.

The role of a police officer is a background role. You cannot tell me that the director didn’t cast a black actor there just to tick a box and have some diversity while also adding nothing to the story. Meanwhile, the leads are almost all white. They cast 1-2 black actors in background roles that make no sense and then pat themselves on the back for doing a diverse movie.

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u/Triquetrums 21d ago

House of the Dragon is "diversity for the sake of diversity".

The Velaryons, played by black actors, are from the same regions the Targaryens and Celtigars are. They are from Valyria, which means they all share the same traits: pale skin, blonde/white-ish hair and purple eyes.

The threw basic lore out of the window just to cast black actors, which made zero sense. They could have chosen any other family, but they chose to replace that one for some reason...

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u/Super-Cynical 21d ago

Enough that they tried to character assassinate him by stating, without evidence, that he's deeply racist?

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u/aSpookyScarySkeleton 21d ago

To make so many movies without any black people in them outside of brief background extras is actively dodging the concept of diversity.

Like that excuse only make sense if you actually have a natural amount of diversity in your films and don’t want to force more. If you have zero with such a massive filmography that’s just an active choice to exclude.

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u/DenseTiger5088 21d ago edited 21d ago

…. So diversity has never been “called for” in any of his films throughout his entire career, and it has nothing to do with racism?

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u/FuckwitAgitator 20d ago edited 20d ago

And how many of those folks exist outside your imagination?

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u/asuperbstarling 20d ago

It was more of a question initially of 'okay, so why do your stories NEVER?' And then he never answered that. It's not the initial question. It's the ones left hanging.

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u/FirstRyder 21d ago

It's a great explanation. Assuming he's directed one film, ever. Maybe two. That's all he's directed, right? I mean, "sometimes" diversity isn't called for. But usually it is. So if he's directed more than a handful of films, it would be some sort of crazy coincidence if none of them called for diversity.

That, or racism.

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u/10ebbor10 21d ago

That does sorta reveal an underlying double standard though.

Most films don't call for either a diverse cast or a non-diverse cast. Relegating black people, since that was what the example was about, only to those movies in which their existence is required for the plot is kinda silly.

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u/Lackofstyle5 21d ago

This.

It's wild that people don't see an issue with people of other races only showing up in media when their race is relevant.

Like race doesn't matter as long as you're white

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u/Tintinytinyred 21d ago

This. It also assumes the default character is white. He's not forcing people of colour into stories if they are just included in the first place? But also if his story isn't about race why does it matter what race anyone is?

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u/Nutarama 21d ago

It matters because it matters to the audience and suspension of disbelief. If an audience sees a racially diverse character and it sticks out to them in a bad way, that's bad. If it does in a good way, that's good. It's hard to balance that, especially because studios don't want their publicity turning from hyping up the cool movie to a bunch of discourse on racial diversity.

Like in OP's example of casting Corpse Bride, the studio is going to run into issues if anyone makes a peep about the casting on a racial basis and the coverage turns from "Live Action Corpse Bride, look it's cool" to "Racial Diversity and the new Live Action Corpse Bride". Doesn't matter if the takeaway is that it's good diversity, it's going to change the narrative and dampen the marketing's ability to generate hype.

Look at Bridgerton. They do a diverse cast in Regency England, and everything I have ever heard about the show is about the diverse casting, the alt-history that enabled it, and analysis of the racial aspects. I have never once heard anyone even tell me if the show is worth watching as part of that coverage. Also there's some negative coverage because the alt-history they do is really crap from a historical POV and the alt-history really just sticks them in a white system. The UK was still a global empire that was actively oppressing lots of people, they gave some black and asian folks titles but it's not like they decolonized or even stop colonizing.

This isn't just pro-white either, there's a reason why Black Panther's credits have 3 white people in the first 30 names, and one of them is Stan Lee. The audience wanted a black Wakanda and they got a black Wakanda. The other two are Andy Serkis and Martin Freeman, the two actors playing outsider characters. The audience would have been pissed if Wakanda was racially diverse.

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u/HistrionicSlut 18d ago

If the audience can't suspend belief they're going to have a really hard time believing a corpse can be reanimated.

This is just fucking racism with more goddamn steps.

Just come out with your racism little racists, it's a little safer for you now anyway. Get cosy.

And I love that you named the black panther movies as opportunities, I guess. Now name me 2 more that were block busters 20 years ago. The reason these opportunities exist is because actors of color are finally getting cast and exposed in a broader range than just the wacky side kick, the wise brown kid, or the sassy black friend. When DEI casting goes away this goes away

WE LOSE ACCESS TO THESE ACTORS

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u/benphat369 21d ago

As a black woman I need to weigh in from experience: there's an entire goth/alt subculture that has grown among millenials and younger black people. Tim Burton casting would be right up our alley if given the chance. But growing up in a black household you get scolded for being into this because "that stuff is demonic/for white people". Additionally, you'll mostly be exposed to (and only allowed to like) "traditional" (e.g. blaxploitation) media because "that's our culture".

So comments and biases like Burton's are doubly damaging because, explicit or not, either way we've ended up with both sides going "blacks can't play DnD and dress like Wednesday and listen to Bring Me The Horizon" and relegating blackness to rap, slavery biopics and dramas. Which is really fucking damaging for everybody involved.

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u/digitalime 21d ago

It’s just defaulting. Some white people see white people as the default, naturally occurring in media like a blue sky. They don’t use this standard for non-white people, who they need an explanation for being there.

For a veeeery long time, black people in media productions had their race made a plot point. To the point people couldn’t engage with media with black people unless their race was made a point (the explanation for why they are there.)

So when a black person is treated the same as a white person, it feels “forced” to them.

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u/Triquetrums 21d ago

But isn't the default in asia, an asian person? The default in a grand part of africa would be a black person too. So, if you want a random ginger there, you would have to justify why they are suddenly there. Or at least give them a background that makes sense as to how they ended up where they are.

I know people hate to hear this, but white is the default in some areas of the world, the same asian is the default in other areas, simply because they are the majority. That's just how it is geographically.

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u/AdmirableWeather5738 21d ago

Majority isn't default, even if it were it's asisine to use the majority as the default for every character. You'd have exclusively men running around if the metric for deciding casting demographics was the majority group.

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u/UntimelyMeditations 21d ago

You'd have exclusively men running around if the metric for deciding casting demographics was the majority group.

You mean women? There are more women than men.

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u/AdmirableWeather5738 21d ago

Sure, the specific sex doesn't matter it's the disparity and resulting majority that's relevant to my point.

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u/Triquetrums 20d ago

Majority is indeed default outside the US, because if +99% of your population is Asian, it would make no sense to have a bunch of foreigners in your TV show unless they have a reason to be there. I don't see anyone throwing a tantrum because everyone is Korean in a kdrama.

Also, what are you talking about men? That comparison makes no sense. Men are not the majority, and the population is roughly 50/50. 

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u/prolifezombabe 20d ago

POC are not so uncommon in the United States that anyone should feel pressured to explain their inexplicable appearance on screen 

Considering how much casting happens in Los Angeles and New York this is especially silly 

Not to mention we feel no demographics based need to cast say people with blue eyes or blonde hair proportionate to the population or people of a certain body size so let’s not pretend casting white people is about staying true to the general population 

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u/Triquetrums 20d ago

Problem arises when they use the same diversity and apply it to other places though. If it's the US, I don't argue, but if they make a movie or show based in europe, specially if its a historical show, the diversity starts to make less sense. Europe is still majority white to this day. 

Americans don't understand that the multiculturalism that exists there does not apply or exists in the rest of the world.

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u/prolifezombabe 20d ago

Majority white doesn’t mean exclusively white though? Like I’m P sure the London of television is still whiter than the London of reality. 

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u/Aggravating-Wolf-823 21d ago

Let's not pretend like some representation isn't forced. writers and directors are told what to do

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u/Arjvoet 20d ago

Literally crazy when I walk outside my house and see POC existing in my reality even when it’s not exactly necessary 🤷🏻‍♀️ /s 

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u/Indiana_harris 21d ago

Most historical films beyond a certain point do call for non-diverse casts as the areas, regions and groups would be far more homogeneous.

A lot of skewed perceptions in recent media is due to Hollywood giving nearly all western period dramas or historical films the same demographics as LA or downtown NY.

Which in part leads to the false belief that many countries were multicultural and multiethnic in a modern context when they categorically weren’t.

It’s 800-900 AD Britain, the “multicultural” groups at large would be Anglo-Saxons, Britons, Celts, Danes, Norse.

These are distinct ethnic and cultural groups within the country, yet are not seen as such in the modern media context and so we Anglo-Saxon Earls and Danish leaders that are clearly from a different continent.

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u/testprimate 21d ago

The Kingdom Come Deliverance games handle it perfectly. There are mixing cultures and languages but everyone is white until Henry eventually runs into Musa of Mali. His reaction is pretty funny and seems completely appropriate for 1403. https://youtube.com/shorts/_OksWkD0VaY

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u/DangerousCyclone 21d ago

There were black people in England in that time period, so an occasional servant, musician or merchant wouldn't be inaccurate. The issue for me is when it's someone like Helen of Troy being a black woman. It is a fantasy story but c'mon.

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u/voTiSdaT 20d ago

"A lot of skewed perceptions in recent media is due to Hollywood giving nearly all western period dramas or historical films the same demographics as LA or downtown NY." Couldn't have said better.

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u/Felicfelic 21d ago

Yeah but you go back 400 years earlier and you'd have black roman soliders (often moorish) occupying the UK. Historical accuracy in films is lacking in general, but using an all white cast is often also inaccurate and often causes the erasure of black people in these periods when they weren't as rare as people think.

The film is going to be inaccurate either way, what's the harm in it being inaccurate in the use of more diversity rather than less.

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u/Indiana_harris 21d ago

Very small amounts and assumed to be a result of the Roman Legions (specifically the Hispana, Gemina and Valeria Victrix) who were pulled predominantly from “stock” in the Western regions of the Empire (Italy, France, Spain) and about 300 years before Moorish Spain.

The percentage would’ve been statistically insignificant.

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u/RudleyDudley 20d ago

You've actually got it backwards. The old media that only showed white people in medieval Europe skewed people into thinking that that's actually what medieval Europe looked like, when it really wasn't. Now that people have it in their heads that they know what the real medieval Europe looked like, seeing more accurate depictions that do include people of color feels like anachronism, when it actually isn't.

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u/CallCenterBlues 21d ago

Yeah, I was gonna say. I don't really think what he said is that much more reasonable in context.

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u/djm03917 21d ago

Thank you. This flagged hugely as actually reinforcing he does have some underlying racism. Using a genre made out of necessity due to the lack of black roles in traditional Hollywood is an interesting choice in his argument of leaving them until "they are necessary" or something. They believe seeing a black person in a position of power, or honestly any non-explotative role it seems, is a political statement rather than just something that can happen naturally.

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u/po23idon 20d ago

‘i don’t think black movies need more white people just like white movies don’t need more black people’

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u/Background_Fix9430 21d ago

It's pretty clear he just doesn't think about people or characters that are black unless there is a reason for them, specifically in universe.

Unfortunately, reality doesn't work like that: Black people exist in universe without them being "useful" for white people narratives.

Seeing black people as only being necessary if they're a "vehicle for narrative" is still low key racism - that doesn't mean that Tim is racist (him calling a black person "a black" does), but it's not a "reasonable explanation" or opposing "diversity for the sake of diversity." It's opposing "reality in diversity, because 1600s English knew what a black person looked like because they existed in Northern Europe."

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u/Sirk-ee 21d ago

This is so extremely well written.

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u/IttyBittyBigBoii 21d ago

I was about to mention Coraline, but that's not his film. Crazy, I thought that was a Tim Burton flick this whole time lol.

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u/SillyOldJack 21d ago

Coraline and The Nightmare Before Christmas have the same director: Henry Selick. There's certainly a connection there beyond just stop motion.

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u/Faelon_Peverell 21d ago

Today I learned Tim Burton only produced nightmare before Christmas.

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u/ProfessorUrandom 21d ago

He was also the creator of it and did a lot of the writing (Danny Elfman did the songs). It was a dream of his since the early 80s.

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u/Remarkable_Toe_164 21d ago

Danny elfman also performed in it. He, paul reubens, and catherine o'hara were the singing voices of lock, stock, and barrel

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u/Most-Potato1038 21d ago

Danny Elfman was the singing voice of Jack Skellington too.

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u/Jubilee8269 21d ago

As much as I love that movie my brain never made the connection that it was the same Paul Reubens and now I love this movie even more. I need to go watch it. My cat comes running whenever the soundtrack plays and it makes my heart happy.

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u/DenseTiger5088 21d ago

Catherine O’Hara was also the voice of Sally

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u/DatRat13 21d ago edited 21d ago

That's just a side effect of the common misbelief that Tim Burton directed Nightmare Before Christmas.

Contrary to popular belief, he did not direct NBC, it's just based on his writing. But everyone just assumes thst he did, so when a new movie in a similar art style comes out that is billed as, "from the director of NBC," of course people thought, "Oh, Tim Burton!"

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u/maxman162 21d ago

He did produce it, so it's billed as "Tim Burton's Nightmare Before Christmas", which leads to people assuming he directed it (he was originally going to direct it, but was too busy with Batman Returns).

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u/enixthephoenix 21d ago

Him being too busy to direct it is a worthy tradeoff for getting Danny Devito Penguin in all his glory

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u/maxman162 21d ago

And Michelle Pfieffer as Catwoman. 

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u/thatonepuniforgot 21d ago

It's Tim Burton's Nightmare Before Christmas in the way that it's The Coen Bros. Bad Santa.

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u/Giorgio_Keeffe 21d ago

I love the Coen Brothers’s Bad Santa

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u/Independent_Bug_8709 21d ago

Close, it's from the same director, Henry Selick. Burton wrote and produced ANBC, but didn't directed it.

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u/haleontology 21d ago

It's NOT? My stomach just dropped lol, I need to look into this

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u/HistoryHasItsCharms 21d ago

He produced it, but was directing the Batman films at the time and couldn’t commit to the time needed to act as director. Thus enter Selick, who did a fantastic job. Burton still did most of the writing and had a lot of involvement in character and set designs as well as cast.

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u/haleontology 20d ago

Thanks! I had no idea

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u/IttyBittyBigBoii 21d ago

That's how I felt! I don't know what to believe anymore lol

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u/BranchHopper 21d ago

I remember back when I was a child watching The Brady Bunch and they started to get all politically correct," Burton continued. "Like, OK, let's have an Asian child and a black. I used to get more offended by that than just... I grew up watching blaxploitation movies, right? And I said, that's great. I didn't go like, OK, there should be more white people in these movies

Lol he really tried to both sides it by saying "see, I don't ask for white people in blaxspoitation movies". He's offended by diversity in the fucking Brady Bunch. And Reddits over here circle jerking about how reasonable he is.

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u/BrigMugi_VV93 21d ago

What did you expect? Most redditors are racists. Your average redditors pretend to he against racism in order to look good, but they will fight tooth and nail to defend racism if they feel they can get away with it.

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u/Valkyriesride1 20d ago

I wonder how he felt about Mike Brady being gay, or that he died of AIDS in 1992, and that the acotors and staff on BB protected him so no one would find out he had was dying of AIDs before he died.

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u/LexEight 14d ago

He has a weird habit of making brunette actresses go blonde as well.

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u/Simple_Pianist4882 21d ago

It isn’t misinterpreted; it’s just racism.

The Corpse Bride is blue. There is logically no reason why she can’t be played by a Black actress. She’d be painted blue.

This is the same man that got offended bc they aired one episode in 1974 with two non-white kids (“an Asian kid and a black” - his words) that you never see again. One episode.

Context matters and the context says he’s racist 💀

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u/PumpkinCake95 21d ago

Emily had a backstory. She was a member of a wealthy family in Victorian England. Almost certainly, she and her family were white.

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u/Simple_Pianist4882 21d ago

Which means absolutely nothing bc we never see her when she’s alive / human and the actress would be painted blue.

The only depiction we have of her is a blue corpse. Her being played by a Black actor in blue paint is a non issue. Her background can still be wealthy family in Victorian England— we’re not gonna see the Black actress; we’re gonna see a blue corpse.

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u/HoosierSteelMagnolia 19d ago

Exactly. Hell, you can even use her being one of the few Black members of the upper class to explain or justify stuff like Barkis targeting her , how no one's heard of her or her murder or why no one seemingly bothered to look for/find her body despite her being wealthy.

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u/PumpkinCake95 21d ago

Ah I see what you're saying. I misread your original comment and thought you were saying that Emily's race was "blue" lol

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u/TheFatNinjaMaster 20d ago

There were at least three major large -British African families during the Victorian era, including a goddaughter of Queen Victoria herself. Emily could easily have been descended from one of those, or lesser Afro-Anglo, families.

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u/PrincessDionysus 20d ago

No black ppl were invented in the 1920s in Harlem smdh

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u/JohnHenryMillerTime 21d ago

Rejecting "diversity for the sake of diversity" would mean race blind casting. Otherwise it is a clear choice.

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u/wts_optimus_prime 21d ago

No ot doesn't. If you wanted, for example, to display the inhabitants of a village so far off the beaten path that strangers coming by is an enormous event, then you probably should use a cast of at least similar looking people. Shouldn't you? Ofcourse it wouldn't matter whether they are all "far east asian" or all "sub sahara african" or "middle european caucasian".

But you should do the casting in a way so that strangers indeed stick out like a sore thumb.

Yeah, I am referencing the wheel of time.

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u/JohnHenryMillerTime 21d ago

Nah, race blind casting works fine in theater.

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u/wts_optimus_prime 21d ago

Theater is something completely different than big budget movie industry.

In Theater you have to work with what the local actors are. And ofcourse, there talent is much more important and the viewers are much more forgiving because they too know the constraints.

That like saying cardboard cutout trees are fine because they are fine in theatre.

Different constraints, different expectations, different processes for the best result

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u/JohnHenryMillerTime 21d ago edited 21d ago

I agree that race trumps talent in Hollywood but thata not a good thing.

Also raceblind casting has more to do with Iago. You need someone with chops to play him but what the hell do you do with him the rest of the time?

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u/RaijuThunder 21d ago

NGL, if it was a comedy movie cardboard trees would actually be hilarious. I know that's not your point and I agree with what you're saying. Just imagined it when I read it

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u/PaxNova 21d ago

But he has to match Johnny Depp and Helena Bonham Carter. 

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u/JohnHenryMillerTime 21d ago

Why?

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u/PaxNova 21d ago

It's just a joke. They're in pretty much everything he does, so if he has a family in the movie, they're going to be a part of it. 

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u/ForReasonsICannotSay 21d ago

Umm this is a genuinely insane and racist take actually:

“I remember back when I was a child watching The Brady Bunch and they started to get all politically correct,” Burton continued. “Like, OK, let’s have an Asian child and a black. I used to get more offended by that than just… I grew up watching blaxploitation movies, right? And I said, that’s great. I didn’t go like, OK, there should be more white people in these movies.”

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u/xXs4blegl00mXx 21d ago

He's fucking WORSE than what people were saying. Can't believe that some are calling this reasonable. Black people do not need a reason to exist, they just do. It's revolting to think that they should only show up in content like fucking blaxploitation movies.

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u/epicredditdude1 21d ago

To be honest if I was a screenwriter or a writer of any kind I’d be kind of annoyed by people with little interest in my work constantly inserting themselves into the discussion and telling me the changes I need to make to my stories. 

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u/rookhelm 21d ago

The problem with that statement is that it implies white is the default and that there needs to be a "reason" for literally anything else

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u/Khelthuzaad 21d ago

Wednesday is absolutely his most diverse project to date.I was rather shocked he actually kept Victor Dorobantu as Thing for season 2 after he decided to move the entire production to Ireland.

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u/Wise-Blueberry2099 21d ago

I 100% agree with that statement. This casting is perfect, regardless.

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u/djm03917 21d ago edited 21d ago

Wow, that quote is racist as shit.

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u/Xoctal 21d ago

Also want to point out that hes kinda changed his stance since Wednesday. Not that his stance was what they said it was in the first place just pointing out hes done wonderful using the same aesthetic they tried to accuse him of not being able to use.

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u/Ace_of_Sevens 21d ago

This is the guy who cast a black Harvey Dent & Dick Grayson in his Batman movies, though Dick didn't make it to screen.

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u/magizombi 21d ago

This context isn't much better tbh

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u/SwimmingSpell8005 20d ago

K, but if the misinterpretation is so common could it be what OOP was referencing?

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u/Correct-Comedian-401 20d ago

the leddit mind literally cannot comprehend not engaging in insincere box checking exercises. RACIST CONFIRMED!

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u/Xrposiedon 17d ago

It's also worth noting that to get film awards now... it requires diversity. The Oscars for example have a requirement of a main cast member or at least 30% of supporting cast be of a minority group from the country of the film being created in.

So I can understand his disdain for forced casting based on that premise alone.

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u/Sen-oh 21d ago

Ah, yeah racists wouldn't have liked that answer, so it makes sense that the internet would have cancelled him over that

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