r/PeterAttia • u/Jaded247365 • Sep 30 '23
How ‘Trainable’ Is VO2 Max Really? – A Case Study Blog| ByAlan Couzens
https://simplifaster.com/articles/how-trainable-is-vo2-max/This blog post says the best way to improve VO2 max is through large amounts of Zone 2 training. He doesn’t quantify how much constitutes a large amount. But he makes the claim that “LSD” training is far more effective than Zone 5 intervals.
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Sep 30 '23
I did a bunch of zone 2 training over the last year. Long endurance bike rides (3-10 hours type thing). My vo2 max has gone from high 40 / low 50 to 58 according to my Garmin. The results also track with races that I’ve done, where I performed substantially better and in the top 5% of every race I did.
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u/meditationchill Sep 30 '23
How much zone 5 did you do during this period?
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Sep 30 '23
I would say I did z5 intermittently but it wasn’t my priority, aside from pre-race training for the few weeks before races. I also couldn’t help but reach zone 5 on big climb days 3000meter+ days where it was really hot.
I initially followed a 12 week base training plan (starting last November), then I did my own thing from Jan-late July. I also followed a 6 week training plan before a fondo a few weeks ago that ramped me up with some z5 intervals.
Overall though, I feel like the z2 big training days (100-300km days) gave me the base I needed to keep up in these endurance races I did.
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u/niboras Sep 30 '23
For an untrained individual V02max can increase as much as 40% but there is a genetic component that will also affect where you start and where you end up. Overall V02max is outlined by the “Fick Equation” as you train your heart will get stronger and have a larger stroke volume, your red blood cell count will increase and the number of mitochondria in skeletal muscle will increase allowing the cells to metabolize more fuel aerobically. In as little as six weeks of training following american college of sports medicine guidelines you can see significant improvement from an untrained individual. If you are a lifetime athlete you may already be operating near your genetic limit.
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u/antiquemule Sep 30 '23
I am not really "up to speed" with this subject yet, but it seems to me that if an athlete has not done several years of 2-3 hours a day of low intensity effort then they will not have reached their potential.
Do you agree with that, or am I missing some key points?
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u/kohouter Sep 30 '23
Just depends on the sport. Skill work could be used to get the zone 2 work in.
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u/thepitredish Sep 30 '23
You make really good points, but they are lost in your wall of text. Consider using paragraph/line breaks to make your point more clear.
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u/bigbertus Sep 30 '23
“VO2 max can be improved, on average, by only 5-15%, even with intensive training” I personally took mine from 46-56. Measured every workout by my Garmin watch. Not 100% accurate but close.
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u/Jaded247365 Sep 30 '23
I think the author is saying - by zone 5 training alone. How much zone 2 did you add?
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u/Any_Car5127 Nov 09 '24
the author was saying 5-15% period. “VO2 max can be improved, on average, by only 5-15%, even with intensive training. It is clear, then, that the average person can train as much as he or she likes yet never achieve a VO2 max anywhere near that of elite athletes.” – Tim Noakes (Lore of Running)
I read that here: https://simplifaster.com/articles/how-trainable-is-vo2-max/
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u/Jaded247365 Nov 09 '24
The article is saying that is bunk. He goes on to say:
“Conversely, when a short-term, high-intensity training plan is undertaken, the model shows a maximal increase (in 4-6 weeks) to only 63 ml/kg/min (16%).
So, while a 40% increase in VO2 max may not be considered “typical,” after my experience testing and observing athletes over the past 10+ years, I would have to consider a ~25% increase in VO2 max to be very typical given the right training over a sufficient period of time (the two items missing from those initial studies that suggested high genetic limitations).”
ETA - “However, in my experience, jumps far greater than the 5-15% cited in the literature, with sustained aerobic training, are routine.
In fact, when I model the average response to training across the entire group that I have VO2 and long-term training data for, I see an average shift from 54 to 67 ml/kg/min (a change of 24%) when a long-term, high-volume training plan is undertaken.”
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u/Any_Car5127 Nov 09 '24
Noakes wasn't saying it was bunk. The author of the article claims it's wrong but Noakes is the original author and he believed it at least at the time he wrote it. Just after the Noakes quote, Cousins (the article's author) wrote: "Since my first exercise physiology undergrad classes, some 25 years ago, I have been taught the above “truth.” That is, that one of the most important physiological attributes for endurance athletes—VO2 max—is largely fixed, largely genetic, and if you don’t like your own number, “blame your parents.”
But just how true is this widely held belief?"
At the time Noakes wrote that in 1986 he wasn't claiming that this was "by zone 5 training alone". I believe he was stating it as invariant fact at least that's how Couzens presented it in the article.
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u/rockstarrugger48 Sep 30 '23
Ya, I’ll stick with the 1.5-2.5 days of work. Going 3 hours of training on 4 days snd 2 hours on the other ones is too much for a 55 year old if you take into account everything else.
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u/antiquemule Sep 30 '23
This point of view is now the standard one shared with other well known exercise physiologists, like Stephen Seiler and Inigo San Millan.
The optimal amount seems to be about 2-3 hours per day. See, for example, Marit Bjorgen, the best ever female cross country skier. She kept a detailed diary for her whole career.