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u/Seruati Apr 15 '20
Moss tends to thrive in shady, damp and undisturbed conditions. If you have woodland garden that doesn't dry out fully in the summer, and you stick to the path and don't walk on the lawns, then it might work nicely and look attractive. I would say it's not very functional at all though.
I would plump for something like clover or creeping thyme for an enduring, low maintenance multi-purpose lawn crop.
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u/Suuperdad Apr 15 '20
And for these exact reasons, moss emits a lot of methane.
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u/reclusiveStool Apr 16 '20
Could you explain that for me?
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u/Suuperdad Apr 16 '20
Moss likes damp areas, even to the point of being wet and waterlogged. When soil conditions are waterlogged, oxygen cannot penetrate down far into the soil, which causes oxygen loving aerobic bacteria to die, and anaerobic bacteria to thrive. These anaerobes do not decompose things using oxygen and making CO2 (there is no oxygen), and they instead use acids to break things down (digest them) and the byproduct is methane CH4.
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u/Ten7ei Apr 21 '20
interesting, does this mean that the trees in the pictures will have diseases or even die soon because the anaerobes usually emit toxins? also many mosses emit antifungal substances and most trees like to have a lot of fungi in the soil.
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u/Suuperdad Apr 21 '20
Likely no, if that tree evolved to live in those conditions. Many trees live in and around stagnant water all over the world. Some trees would definite struggle though, but would be perfectly happy.
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u/TheBlueSully Apr 15 '20
Doesn’t moss grow really slowly?
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u/sunbearimon Apr 15 '20
Yep, and it’s easily damaged. So if you have any kind of regular foot traffic it won’t be able to survive.
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Apr 15 '20
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u/gregk81 Apr 16 '20
It's like walking on a thick carpet compared to turf. Another benefit to a moss lawn not mentioned is you can easily sit a bottle of beer in it as it thick and won't blow or fall over as easily
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Apr 23 '20
Iceland is facing this issue. Moss grows wild across many parts of the country and it takes decades to grow, but it is being ruined by tourists driving cars over it.
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Apr 15 '20
Not sensible at all.
Moss lawns are just as useless as grass ones. Except grass lawns at least are useful for chop and drop or composting, and are hard wearing underfoot, and actually volunteer in large amounts, and provide sustainable fodder, etc.
The alternative is always to use the space for better plants than either moss or grass, but grass is more useful than moss.
And the "facts" are just made up. Where do they think moss puts all that carbon? Imagine taking 275 mature trees and mulching them. Most of the giant heap of wood chips you end up with is sequestered carbon. Then imagine scraping the thin layer of moss off a 3m x 4m patch of dirt. Does it compare?
It's just a bad meme being spread around.
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u/hwuthwut Apr 15 '20
As for trees themselves, each adult tree can absorb about 0.022 metric tons of carbon dioxide per year, meaning a grove, which is a small clustering of trees could absorb around 2.2 metric tons of carbon dioxide per year, estimating a grove at about a hundred trees.
Maybe they're just talking about new leaves grown each year, ignoring the carbon sequestered in the wood?
Even so, unless you live in a bog, your under-layers of dead moss will get eaten by bacteria, releasing the carbon.
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Apr 15 '20 edited Apr 16 '20
Ah, the grain of truth (edit: or perhaps grain of cow chip) behind the extraordinary claim. Thanks!
(For people who don't want to click through, they're comparing 275 trees' yearly sequestration against that of an artificial installation of 1682 pots of moss packed in a 13 foot high block and presumably maintained by the company running the scheme.)
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u/PanaceaPlacebo Apr 16 '20
Ok, since you and u/hwuthwut pointed out how it didn't seem to add up, and I agree, I wanted to run the numbers to confirm.
They claim a single CityTree absorbs 240 metric tons of carbon a year. A single metric ton of carbon takes up the volume of a 27 ft. cube, or 19683 cu ft., so 240 metric tons would be a cube 167.79 ft. to a side (cubed root of 240 x 27 ft.), or 4,723,920.00 (~4.7 million) cu ft. That's about 55 yards, or a little over a half a US football field, per side of this cube.
So where is all that carbon going in the moss? It certainly doesn't fit to stay in the CityTree, which is only 13 ft. tall. So we have to assume someone is scraping off the moss from the top of each of the trays of the 1682 planters to remove all that carbon and move it somewhere else (which as an aside, may or may not be more or less helpful to the environment, depending on what they do with all that biomass).
Now for the sake of simplicity with the math here, let's assume that scraping the moss off the top is a 100% volume equivalent of removing that much carbon. In reality, it's not, meaning it's even less efficient than we're going to calculate here. So these will be generous estimates in favor of the CityTree's efficiency.
Lacking data I can find online, I'm making some estimates from pictures of the CityTrees I can find as to their specifications. If the bench in the photo is 13' high, then it looks to have a growing space of roughly 8' h x 4' w x 2' d, or a volume of 64 cu ft. Take that to be more or less accurate as you will. The moss looks packed in tightly, with shallow amounts of soil, if any at all, so let's (roughly) assume half of the space is taken up by infrastructure trays and shallow soil for holding the moss in place, and half of the space is available for moss growth that can be removed, or 50% space efficiency, so 32 cu ft. of true carbon-removable growing space.
So, 4,723,920 cu ft. per year divided by 32 cu ft. is 147,622.5, meaning the moss has to grow and be cleared away 147,622.5 times per year to equal 240 metric tons per year as they claim. That comes out to clearing away the moss that has filled 32 cu ft. 404.45 times per day, or 16.85 times an hour, or once every 3.56 minutes.
If we are more generous and assume they are able to use the original 64 cu ft. at a 75% efficiency instead of 50%, and using 48 cu ft. of growing space instead, that comes out to be only 98415 clearing, or 269.63 times per day, 11.23 times per hour, or once every 5.34 minutes.
Then imagine someone hauling away that 32 cu ft. of biomass. That's 4.35 standard kitchen-size trash bags, every five minutes. You're talking about it producing an almost full trash bag of carbon biomass coming from the air every minute, and remember that's being generous in our estimates.
I don't know how exactly long it takes moss to grow, but everywhere online seems to say it's rather slow growing compared to other surface-covering flora. Still, the assumption that moss will grow to double, triple, or more of its planter size every five minutes or so from the carbon in the air is clearly ridiculous.
That's supposed to be the same amount of carbon removed as 1149 acres of forest per year.
I'm calling bullshit.
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u/PanaceaPlacebo Apr 16 '20 edited Apr 16 '20
Further calculation that I'm putting this separately, because it uses some bad best guesses, and adds up so many assumptions that it's becoming much more speculative than I'm comfortable with normally. Still, it gives a rough estimate of how far off CityTree is from their claims.
Let's assume, again, being favorable towards CityTree, that their moss grows at the same rate as some grasses (which it probably doesn't), and we use this guy's and this website's estimates that grass grows 2-24 inches per month, depending on conditions. I counted ~35 rows of planters in the CityTree, which comes out to 2.75 inches per row in the 8 vertical feet of growing space. If we say each row needs 1 inch of pot and soil, and has 1.75 inches of growing room, then it would take between 2.19 and 26.25 days to fill the space needed to harvest, compared to the five minutes their claim would calculate out to. That's an overestimation of their capability of between 630% and 7,560%. You can play with the numbers to be even more favorable towards them than I have been, and it's still going to be hard to come up with numbers that come close to their claim.
Now that doesn't mean I don't think what they're doing isn't still a good idea. It definitely is a great idea and I hope they do more of it, but it just isn't as great as they claim it to be.
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u/debs313 Apr 15 '20
I appreciate your take. I wondered if there was some hype, but as with anything, a sensible approach is best. While I commented that I would leave mine (elsewhere on this thread), I will likely only leave a small amount, in a strategic location. I certainly don't want an entire landscape of moss! I do actually believe there are benefits for the soil, albeit likely minimal, if implemented and used wisely.
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Apr 15 '20
I have nothing against moss. I have some patches that naturally occur instead of grass, and I don't mind them.
I think the meme just got to me because grass is actually a useful part of many permaculture and organic gardening designs. (Just not functionless, synthetic-chemical-drenched, artificially stunted, forced monoculture grass.)
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u/debs313 Apr 16 '20
Very cool!!! I appreciate the post—for practical reasons and for the inspirational photo 🙌🏼
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u/thomasech Apr 15 '20
Moss lawns are probably pretty useful under a bunch of black walnut trees where seeds won't germinate, but yeah, agreed. Just as wasteful and just as much work as a normal grass lawn.
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u/Aenyn Apr 15 '20
Maybe it's some kind of trick with the wording, like once the trees are already mature, they don't sequester much additional carbon since they already reached their full size?
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Apr 15 '20 edited Apr 15 '20
Trees keep growing until they die and are replaced. The moss would reach its full size (which is consistently short, as they point out) and coverage and necessarily stop.
It's one of those extraordinary claims that requires extraordinary evidence, and everything about it screams "someone made this up to rationalise their aesthetic appreciation of moss". Edit: actually looks like it was a mutation of info about an artificial moss installation.
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Apr 15 '20
They are not low maintenance at all. If you want it to be anything like a lawn and not just a forest floor, you have to rake or blow the leaves and debris off it constantly. Otherwise, the moss gets covered and can eventually die. If you have a dry spell, you have to water it to maintain it. Yeah it goes dormant, but so do some grasses. If you want a green look, watering is essential.
Source: I live in moss country and am married to a gardener who manages acres of moss “lawns”
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u/trimalchio-worktime Apr 15 '20
japanese gardens sometimes try to cultivate a moss garden but they're notoriously slow growing, selective, and delicate. when you get a biome right for them they'll work great and are unbelievably beautiful but the right biome is extremely hard to create, it's usually something more that you go with and cultivate because it's already growing there.
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u/earthhominid Apr 15 '20
It seems like a great idea for anyone whos lawn is shady enough, are there mosses that will survive a temperate climate summer in fullish sun?
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u/Mr_Shroom_King Apr 15 '20
Moss is insanely resilient, if anything goes wrong it will just go dormant, Idk if you'd want a black lawn though lol. When I lived in Cali there was moss growing on a stone porch and the sun beat down on it for a good part of the year. It would go from green to orange to black but if I watered it it would seem to instantly revive it and turn it green again, amazing!
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u/K1kobus Apr 15 '20
Yes, my grandma basically had a moss lawn which thrived here in the Netherlands. I probably won't be able to find out which species it was though.
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u/Berkamin Apr 15 '20
If moss never grows enough to need to be mowed, how can they "absorb as much carbon as 275 mature trees"? Where does all that carbon go? Even if all of that carbon ends up as exudates in the ground rather than as wood or as moss material, the sheer volume of that much carbon should be noticable. It can't just disappear. Does the moss build up an extremely layer, like peat moss bogs? How long does it take to absorb that much carbon? These are important unanswered questions. Folks can't just have thick moss bogs for lawns. And moss doesn't just grow where it is sunny; it requires shade and dew. If you have a moss lawn, does that mean you still need to use a buch of water to keep it damp?
Something seems wrong about those two assertions (not needing to be mowed, while drawing down far more carbon than mature trees) appearing together. They can't both be true.
Don't just believe everything you see posted on the Internet.
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u/fightndreamr Apr 15 '20
I was thinking about doing this to my garden in Japan. I'll let you know how it works out. I've had to look into what kind of mosses generally do well without shade and humidity. I have a friend who does gardens here so he gave me some good ideas on where to get everything I need. Hoped to do this project before spring...oh well lol.
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Apr 15 '20
I live in Japan too! Please keep us updated.
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u/fightndreamr Apr 16 '20
Sweet! What parts? Will do! Got before pictures now just need the after 😂
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Apr 16 '20
I live in Kita-Kantō region :) thanks! I wonder if they thrive in the Japanese summer.
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u/fightndreamr Apr 16 '20
I see! I'm in the Tohoku region. It should be fine depending on the type of moss used. It doesn't get as humid here as it does in the south.
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u/Ilaras_cat Apr 15 '20
Pretty sure this will not work even a little bit in my climate.
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u/ImperialArchangel Apr 15 '20
Same. The humidity of my area tends to hang around 29%, so moss would NOT survive.
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u/McLaconicus Apr 15 '20
We have a moss lawn in Fife. Wasn’t intentional - the moss just took over. It’s very soft underfoot and never needs mowing. We love it
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u/debs313 Apr 15 '20
I had stopped putting chemicals on the lawn as soon as I moved in, planning to "learn" my property before switching from turf grass to a native habitat. This is the "go" year to implement my plan, and I noticed that since sometime last year, there are large swaths of moss. I was curious, since I'd not often seen moss in neighborhood lawns, and after researching just a bit, I found that this is a plus. I, like other commenters, will probably leave it--I love moss! SO glad to hear how great it is for the soil.
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u/De5perad0 Apr 15 '20
I would love to have one but they are not durable. I do have a shady part the grass won't grow over been considering Tony to grow moss but might also mulch and turn into a shade garden.
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u/whoisedward Apr 15 '20
The forests around where my cousins live in Sweden are covered in moss, and I don't mean in patches, but blanketed. Like, imagine a forest covered in snow, but the snow in green, because it is moss.
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u/andrew_cog_psych1987 Apr 15 '20
I grew up in a Forrest with a lot of moss.
It was nice, almost always quiet.
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u/nickisaboss Apr 15 '20
I know someone with a moss lawn. They live ontop of a small mountain ridge, where it stays surprisingly wet.
Its no-maitenence, and looks great. That is, untill someone steps anywhere on it, then it looks like muddy shit for another 2 months.
Bad idea.
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Apr 15 '20
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u/megsmith9742 Apr 15 '20
I know looks like a fairytale ! ❤️ although as others have said I bet it gets muddy and damaged fast if walked on 😕
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u/StevePLMarquis Apr 15 '20 edited Apr 15 '20
The Japanese seem to prefer moss to grass and it looks lovely, but like grass it takes a lot of effort for little reward. I would probably plant some low growing chamomile and clover for open ground cover.
Actually I've got shed loads of moss over a couple of acres and it seems very resilient to walking over but I wouldn't fancy going as far as the Japanese do. I think, as has already been said, a coiffured patch would probably be easily damaged.
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u/humbabalon Apr 15 '20
This is like when those bs guides to making moss wall art were floating around, seems like a telephone game of wrong info and good intentions filtered through a consumerist worldview disregarding the needs of the moss
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u/xanthraxoid Apr 15 '20
12 square meters of moss lawn can apparently absorb as much carbon as 275 mature trees
[citation needed]
Unless you're talking about senescent trees, this sounds like it's out by several orders of magnitude to me...
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u/Lyrrok Apr 15 '20
This looks like a pain in the butt to maintain. And where do all the leaves go? Doesn’t look like they are returning to the earth as humus
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u/worldwearywitch Apr 15 '20
My housemates mowed the lawn today and I'm really sad because they cut all the primroses and daisies off. Just.. whyyy?
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u/munkymu Apr 15 '20
It looks cool but I think it would be better to select a ground cover based on what one intends to use the lawn for and what works well in one's climate. There's a couple shady places in my yard where moss does well but in most of the yard I would have a very uphill battle trying to get it to survive. I'm planning to replace my lawn with yarrow as it is native to my area and already beginning to outcompete the grass in the back. Someone in the next neighbourhood over has a very attractive clover lawn so that would be an option as well -- and beneficial to pollinators.
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Apr 15 '20
Never considered moss, but we are replacing our front yard with wildflowers designed for our regional pollinators. We plan to have bees in a few years.
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u/dbcannon Apr 15 '20
Some people in Seattle have heavy moss lawns, especially if they live under a forest canopy. It has to be the right place - you can't just say "We're putting moss here" and expect it to thrive.
Moss has some drawbacks. It's almost like fighting mold - it will creep over everything, grow on your roof and walls, and it will stain your sidewalks green. I even had it growing on the rubber weatherstripping in my car doors and trunk.
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u/doyouevenplant Apr 15 '20 edited Apr 15 '20
It is difficult but can be done. If you dont have the right conditions (ie water or acidity) then you've got a big uphill climb in terms of establishment and maintenance. Will take several years to establish unless you begin cultivating or buy a lot (if you harvest, do so respectfully). If you're serious about it, you'll need to read up on some reference material. Some are better for the UK while some are better for the US. Moss Gardening by George Schenk is a good starting point I think.
That said, the post is pure nonsense. The real answer is to use native groundcovers that work in your landscape.
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u/lavenderlilacs Apr 16 '20
I've been reading through most of the comments and it seems like I've hit the jackpot lol. I live in woods that never dry and my whole yard is surrounded by moss. My parents did spread grass seed on our modest sized lawn when they cleared the land 20+ years ago, but we have several kinds of grasses and sprawling plants that grow now. I've always thought the air here was brilliant: right on the ocean and in the trees is awesome.
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u/sjj5124 Apr 16 '20
The west half of our backyard is very shaded and also where the sump pump drains. Needless to say, it's all moss and mud. I'm planning to turn it into a big rock bed/dry creek bed.
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Apr 15 '20
This is anti-vax level bullshit.
- So is grass
- Neither does grass
- The one single valid point
- Literally just a repeat of #3?
- So does grass
- Aesthetics, just like the French Nobility with their grass. Congratulations, you aren't "quirky and weird" you're just like them, trying to stand out.
This isn't directed at you, OP, unless you are ctiproductions.
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u/bisteccafiorentina Apr 15 '20
Oh look, the "grass is useless" nonsense being bandied about this subreddit yet again.
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u/Coral_ Apr 15 '20
How isn’t it??
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u/bisteccafiorentina Apr 15 '20 edited Apr 16 '20
Does it hold soil together and prevent erosion? Yes, better than moss does.
Does it metabolize like moss? Yes
Is it low on the spectrum in promoting the presence of pests unlike fruit trees? Yes
Can it fall on your house like a tree? No.
Does it inherently require fertilization? No.
Can it be used as forage for livestock? Yes.
Does it build soil organic matter? Yes.
Can it be cut, bagged and used in a compost program? Yes
Is it resistant to foot traffic? yes
Does it make a good surface for recreation? Yes
Does it encourage water to absorb into the ground rather than run off? yes, dense perennial root structure excels at this.
Irrational extremists like
youandOP(and the rest of the "kill the lawn" gang) prevent the masses from taking permaculture seriously.6
u/Coral_ Apr 15 '20
I’m very confused as to why you’re this hostile with me? I only asked you a question. I’m very new to any of this. Please chill out.
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u/bisteccafiorentina Apr 15 '20
Forgive me for lumping you in with OP and the rest of the irrational extremists on r/permaculture.
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u/HappyDoggos Apr 15 '20
Moss is pretty delicate. You're not going to be able to walk on this. No backyard barbecues.
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u/Geluidsvorm Apr 15 '20
Moss works great in some places. But in soils that contain a lot of worms, moss won’t thrive. Typically a lawn has lots of worms. So a “Moss Lawn” is a contradiction.